Sooooo, what do we do now?

[Geofa 108]

I must point out-I can't recall anyone ever stating that there are no problems with fsx. I also haven't even seen anyone state that they like to imagine there are no problems with fsx-though I am sure that is a closet fantasy for some-especially the Aces team. :-lolI have seen quite a few state that they enjoy fsx that it runs well for them, and is their sim of choice.I also have seen comments as your "a really excited user" and implications that people that enjoy this sim are some how imagining something that isn't there or are deluded. Seems kinda silly to attach labels such as these to fellow flight sim enthusiasts doesn't it? I keep trying to figure out what is accomplished by labelling a fellow simmer in such a way.If you have a beef with the program-take it out on my program-not on fellow avsim members. http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Geofa 108]

That sounds great-I have watched Flight gear and I think there is much potential. Having tileproxy scenery in it would probably move me there!http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Orlaam 311]

nt

[Mike T 208]

Now Mr. Betti, you are of unquestionably one of the giants to whom I was referring. You've been around as long as I can remember (does that mean that we're both old?) :-lolWarm regards,Mike T.

[Guest wjotten]

>Actually it is very much the same if not worse rw.>>A real world engine gaurantee is 1 year from when first run or>500 hrs.>>In this one year time at 125 hours-a starter failed at>50-stranding me 1/2 way across the country requiring a hotel>stay-rental of a c172 to come home and then go back to pick up>the plane-none of this cost covered. The starters are known to>be poor quality and have problems-yet there will be no free>patch from the engine manufacturer-w'eve had two for fsx. Next>one that fails will be on me.>>There also will be no more support on the two engines from>this point on-even though we will be below 500 hours next>year-so if their product lets us down again we will be paying.>>>So the support for this fsx $50 product seems to well exceed>what I get for a $100k one....>Well Geoff, perhaps that's why I tend to see a tone of moderation from you on both sides of this FSX/Acceleration/SP2 issue and the problems folks are having. At least here, if done in a civil tone, people can express their displeasure, much as I'm sure you've done with the Baron problems and the troubles that has caused. bill

[Guest wjotten]

>I must point out-I can't recall anyone ever stating that>there are no problems with fsx. I also haven't even seen>anyone state that they like to imagine there are no problems>with fsx-though I am sure that is a closet fantasy for>some-especially the Aces team. :-lol>>I have seen quite a few state that they enjoy fsx that it runs>well for them, and is their sim of choice.>>I also have seen comments as your "a really excited user" and implications>that people that enjoy this sim are some how imagining>something that isn't there or are deluded. >>Seems kinda silly to attach labels such as these to fellow>flight sim enthusiasts doesn't it? >>I keep trying to figure out what is accomplished by labelling>a fellow simmer in such a way.>>If you have a beef with the program-take it out on my>program-not on fellow avsim members. Actually Geoff, my whole intent IS to take it out on the program but it has become apparent ( although admittedly less so here than other places ) that there are some who take a disparaging attitude at anyone who dares take it out on the program or the large major corporation who's name appears on the box top. Those are the ones I label a really excited user. Simply because the program runs fine on their systems and they're blessed with no problems, gives them no right to imply those with the problems are ignorant, stupid, or at fault because of something they did wrong or an add-on in the way of a clean install. Pretending the program has no faults in no way helps because then that company with its name on the box top is not accountable any longer. It gives that company carte blanche to serve the community up another dose of a lousy product. By the way, I am one of the ones enjoying the sim, although I'm trying to be realistic in the assessment that it is flawed, and I'm miffed that the problems introduced by a service pack won't be addressed, and that 3rd party developers and their customers got the shaft here. So I'll apologize for using 'a really excited user' if it seemed to imply those that enjoy the sim are deluded, but hopefully those who are enjoying it won't negate those who genuinely are having problems. Their concerns are just as real.

[Guest]

I will give you some advice. Here are somethings you can do now:1. Flame Microsoft and/or the a really excited user. why? it's fun and they deserve it.2. Wait for the hardware to "catch up". This may take a nuber of years though!3. Go back to what works reasonably well. If that means SP1 or FS9 then just do it.4. Try other games. Try Crysis, its great just to enjoy graphics if thats what you will enjoy.5. Take up a new hobby. Photography, stamps, bird watching, or build something :)

[Geofa 108]

...and I'll give you some advice. We don't do flaming here-I've already warned you and you are gone.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Mike T 208]

With the final update for FSX out in the wild and FSX in its second year, what do we do now?A year and a few months ago, many of us felt the initial pain of the transition to FSX. A year and a few months ago, many of us were not exactly convinced that FSX was business as usual and it would be all better in time. Indeed many of us remember FS2000 and remember that the final fix for that was FS2004. A year and a few months ago the uproar at the release of FSX somehow felt a bit different than the usual pangs upon a new FS release. However, we were all told to stop whining and be patient: surely the hardware would catch up and any FSX issues would become a thing of the past after a SP or two (and DX10 would usher in a new era of performace and graphical beauty). Now that we have had a service pack or two and a year or the PC fastest processors deluged upon us from a triumphant comeback from Intel the magic bullet never came. DX10 was and still is just a dream and the potential and exuberance of FSX has become somewhat tranished (in my eyes...I try to speak for no one).Now, the most trusted, respected and admired giants of the FS 3rd party development community are raising concerns of incompatibilities, poor FSX sales, unsatisfactory hardware performance, SDK issues, SP2 breaking their software, et al. The last service pack for FSX has been released and this is a bad situation. Can anyone still say that FSX is business as usual? Can anyone call Flight1, Flytampa, Eaglesoft, et al "whiners"? Is there a VALID belief now that maybe something is amiss and the only way out of this quandry is as a unified and cohisive community in addition to a massive does of help from Aces? I have had FSX from day one and it ran poorly from day one. SP1 and SP2 where no joy. I am building a new PC, however, from the responses here, I will not get all sliders to the right even with the fast processors and video cards available. That means that maybe I'll get what I am looking for in the next year or two with a new batch of video cards and processors...just in time for FS11...and most likely have to do it all over again? So, 2 to 3 years to get what I have in FS9 now? I'm worried. The PC I'm building now will cost upwards of $5000 (probably over $8000 if I purchased it from Alienware or such) and it WILL be the PC that I will be most likely be using when FS11 is first released! SO, that means that I will NOT be able to run FSX at full potential with my upcoming purchase! That probably also means that I will not be able to run FS11 at full potential either, but that is 3 years away and I expect it. However, that leaves FSX gathering dust on my self.God has blessed me with the modest financial resources to have been able to purchase every conceivalbe add-on that I desired for FS9. On the other hand for FSX, I've only purchased ASX and FSX has only been used as a one off curiosity every now and then. In the last year I've spent the least on FSX than any other version of FS since the advent of an abundance of add-ons for FS...at total of about $80 vs the thousands I've spent of FS9. I WANT to support Flytampa, Eaglesoft, PMDG, LDS, Flight1 and anyone else who can deliver a droolingly top notch product for FS, but I cannot since I don't use FSX. I can say with total confidence that I am NOT in the minority.After all, look at the freeware releases still streaming in for FS9. Its almost as if FSX doesn't exist! Almost none of the sceneries that I have for FS9 is available in FSX and add-ons are still very scarce with no sign of the deluge that we have seen, and continue to see, for FS9. Again, my friends, I am worried.Unless something drastically changes over the next 2 to 3 years in FSX or until FS11 (and assuming that FS11 gives FS2004 performance on the lastest hardware at release), I can't see making any more purchases except on new FS9 releases. So I ask, what do we do now? What is the gameplan from a developers standpoint? What are other's in the community thinking post FSX SP2? Regards to all. (soapbox mode: off)Mike T.

[JSkorna 137]

Please forget about the 2 alerts I just sent.Jimhttp://www.hifisim.com/banners/hifi-community-sigbanner.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/

[Geofa 108]

Thanks for sending them Jim-it is most helpful in keeping this place clean!http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Guest DreamFleet]

>I will give you some advice. Here are somethings you>can do now:>>1. Flame Microsoft and/or the a really excited user. why? it's fun and they>deserve it.>2. Wait for the hardware to "catch up". This may take a nuber>of years though!>3. Go back to what works reasonably well. If that means SP1 or>FS9 then just do it.>4. Try other games. Try Crysis, its great just to enjoy>graphics if thats what you will enjoy.>5. Take up a new hobby. Photography, stamps, bird watching, or>build something :)>Here's my advice:1. Use FSX with SP2, as that is what most developers will be supporting now, and get a machine / upgrade that runs it. Just priced one today (new machine), and it costs about the equivalent of 9 hours of flight in my real Piper Dakota, never mind a real 747! ;) Do not expect FSX to be "perfect", as the real thing is not either, often not by a long shot. It's often one headache after another and a drain on the wallet. Talk about "frustration", you have no idea!2. Stick with FS9, but do not expect much if any new add-ons for it as, like it or not, most of the market is using FSX.3. Switch to X-Plane or something else. How about Elite? Heck that's FAA-approved software for several times the price but with less features. Sadly, it is geared to real pilots / training. ;)4. Leave the hobby and try something else, and on that note...5. Try the real thing. You think it is "perfect" (as I said above)? Well in certain ways it does blow away FS, while also blowing money out of your wallet at a rate you would not believe. Some of you folks complain about 3rd party developer products? Go buy some of the stuff we do in real aviation and then deal with the "bugs", often after warranty, and at $$$$ to fix them. That comes from "big name" products too, and those manufacturers do not even have support forums!I was at DevCon last month and stayed for the "conference" afterwards, during which time I found myself flying the Extra over some beautiful Australia scenery in FSX by a company named Orbx. Wonderful stuff; smooth as silk, no issues, 30+ FPS and all from a a decent, but not ultra high-end lap top. Had a great time.I learned long ago, you do not judge a product from the forums, as that is where the complaints are. Those who are happy are not posting.FSX is not prefect, neither has any other version been. Those developers who complain have reason to do so as they jumped in early.FSX is, perhaps more than ever, a transitional sim. I saw that 2 years ago. That's why I stayed out of it.Also, do not expect FS11 next year. I have no formal knowledge of the release date, but I would predict 2-3 years before you see it.Now that FSX is complete more developers will start to produce products for it, and many of you having problems now will get past them, just as long as you do not expect "perfection", as we have yet to ever have that with FS, as in the real world.It's not as bad as you think, as it could be worse, it could be the real thing. Oy!Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to all of you. :)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[Geofa 108]

Thanks you Lou-Real flying always does put in perspective doesn't it?We just put two new engines on our Baron a year ago-so we could get increased reliability and safety. Only cost us the price of a small house.At 60 hours the starter failed on the left engine engine (and the starters of our engine are known to be poor, and have a high failure rate-where is the patch from the manufacturer-let alone a free one?). This little problem stuck me 700nm across the country (Kennet,Missouri) requiring a 1 night hotel stay-then a rental of the c172 from #### (cobwebs, altimeter read 500 ft. off-no navigation/ifr instruments working) to fly me home while repairs were made-then a flight back in the same plane to pick mine up. Costs-Starter part and labor covered-all the other stuff-me!Take those nice 1 year engines in for annual in September-should be an easy one with only 125 hours?!-the right one has a crack on the crankcase. 3 month downtime-under warranty-but all those hangar/insurance costs still going while we are grounded-and of course no flying.Some things that the flight sim does that my Baron can't:1) You don't pay for aviation gas at 28 gallons/hr.(last flight Us $4.85/gallon)-do the math...2) It can go anywhere in the world (I have a 3 .5 range with ifr reserves)-I've flown the whole United States but I'll never see anywhere outside it like I can in the sim.3) It doesn't require a hanger with apartment size fee every month4) It doesn't require an annual every year with the unexpected surprises of $$$ costs5) It doesn't require all the paperwork (every gps database update every 28 days requires a logbook entry for instance)6) It doesn't have those little maintenance surprises like when the step you use to get in the plane had a crack last month-only 1 grand to remove and weld...So when I see a $50 piece of software that duplicates a great deal of the reality of flying worldwide, that has had two FREE patches I sometimes have trouble containing ire at the complaining that occurs.A rough estimate-my Baron costs $200-250 an hour to operate.I have 1000 real hours in 18 years of flying.I probably fly 1000 hours in 1 year with fs-what is the hourly rate here at a one time cost of $50?Fsx isn't perfect-either is any plane I have ever flown.http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

[Guest DreamFleet]

Now, while I agree with you, Geof, but just to be fair:There are those FS users who spend more than $50. They buy add-ons, upgrade hardware, add flight control hardware, etc. So $50 in total expenditure does not apply to everyone using FS. I will not go into that very tiny minority who spend tens of thousands of $ on a "home cockpit", as we are talking .01% of the market at best.Otherwise, at least with FSX, well, you already said it, didn't you?!! ;)"As real as it gets"? For a PC sim, perhaps yes, but otherwise...Be happy with what we have with FSX, and let's all deal with it.I know it's a pain having us real aircraft owner/idiots in FS. Talk about folks who throw away money on stuff that is often troublesome and unreliable; heck, we lead the charge! :-erksRegards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[Geofa 108]

You are right of course-During my 3 month flying downtime I spent:$1300 on a system upgrade$1000 on a hardware upgrade (saitek pro yoke, elite avionics 2000,go flight gf-lgt).I told my wife-think how much I would be spending on real flying during this 3 month downtime-she bought it...shhhhhhhhhh.shhhhhhhhhSo $2300 ( I spent $4000 upgrading my 486 33 to a 486 66 in the 1990's) divided by 1000 hours of flight sim time a year=$2.3 dollars an hr.-vs. $200/hr. or more for the real bird.Still a bargain-warts and all. http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/1b5baf...b9f427f694g.jpgMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/