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Guest Tarasdad

Swarm of Bees

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FSX amazes me each time I fly it. Not a good amazement mind you.Last night I'm on decent into KATL. I look out the right window and see what looks to be a red/white star burst which grows. I looked to the left and saw the exact same thing.Next thing I know, the sky is full of AI everywhere. Looked like I was surrounded by a swarm of bees. TCAS was sounding off at an alarming rate.I have many WOAI aircraft installed to FSX. I have no idea why all those bound for or near KATL decided to appear all at once. There were so many the landing lights almost looked like a straight line when viewed from the airport.I do wish I could fly just one flight without some type of issue with FSX!Richard

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Richard, what amazes me is that there are always people who are blaming FSX for their own mistakes ;)If i remember it correctly the traffic density of WOAI is nearly always 100% and that's to much. You can use e.g. the tool "Ai-smooth" or you could change your traffic plans.

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>FSX amazes me each time I fly it. Not a good amazement mind>you.>>Last night I'm on decent into KATL. I look out the right>window and see what looks to be a red/white star burst which>grows. I looked to the left and saw the exact same thing.>>Next thing I know, the sky is full of AI everywhere. Looked>like I was surrounded by a swarm of bees. TCAS was sounding>off at an alarming rate.>>I have many WOAI aircraft installed to FSX. I have no idea>why all those bound for or near KATL decided to appear all at>once. There were so many the landing lights almost looked>like a straight line when viewed from the airport.>>I do wish I could fly just one flight without some type of>issue with FSX!>>Richard>With all due respect, this kind of post amazes me each time I see them. No a good amazement, mind you...Ok, now to offer up a "solution" and attempt to make MY post worth while, have you tried FSX without add on AI (especially FREEWARE AI?)? Does this issue occur then?

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This is a well-known issue in FS2004, so FSX is not to blame.A question to consider: Do you use FSTime or another utility that adjusts the sim clock?I've read reports from people that do not use a timing utility, but run a very high volume of AI traffic. Either way, it comes down to a timing issue within the sim.AI traffic uses the sim clock to determine when to generate traffic within your current sector. If the clock is adjusted while the sim is active, such as with FSTime, the AI scheduler will generate a burst of traffic at the traffic sector boundary point. It's not just traffic that belongs in the local area, but you'll see traffic that should be flying in other parts of the world at that moment.When it does occur, I find the simplest solution is to open the Traffic Toolbox that ships with the traffic SDK and purge all enroute traffic. All those stray aircraft disappear and the sim will begin to regenerate the enroute traffic in the correct locations.FS9 and FSX were not designed to run the amount of traffic some of us have on our sims. If you want to run high volume traffic, then you accept the fact that the sim may be quirky and you should have a workaround.Bruce

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WOAI has been installed for months. I didn't install them just prior to this flight. This is the first time I have seen this with many flights into KATL.I do not use any time utility.From all I have read about AI, and maybe incorrectly written, FS only generates flight plans and aircraft within 100 miles of your aircraft, not all over the world. What else could be the cause? I use a MS operating system and MS flight sim software. I mearly stated the fact that I can not have one flight without a problem. I do believe I am intitled to an opinion as are you. Richard

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>From all I have read about AI, and maybe incorrectly written,>FS only generates flight plans and aircraft within 100 miles>of your aircraft, not all over the world. >>What else could be the cause? I use a MS operating system and>MS flight sim software. As Jim Vile has documented very clearly - FlightSim itself suffers from timing issues in the way it reads the traffic files and operates the AI aircraft.FlightSim reads ALL of the traffic files and ALL of the aircraft route grid data each time it generates new aircraft. It reads the whole world, and then selects the aircraft which should be in active grids at the same time as you are flying.FS2004 does not clear cached scenery files well, and that can leave AI from halfway around the world flying in the wrong area when you start a FS session. I think FSX does a better job of clearing the cache files, but it's harder to test/ check in FSX.Using TrafficTools to create traffic .BGL files introduces more timing errors, especially if fixed arrival times are used.The 200 kts cruise speed trick to avoid certain aircraft models popping up at the gate adds more bad sectors with bad timing to the traffic files.Add to those issues the fact that Flight Simulator is not designed for near the traffic levels we use. Five arrivals at KLAX in 15 minutes is about the maximum trouble free traffic levelWe cannot have 'realistic' AI traffic, either realistic schedules or realistic levels of AI traffic, without expecting errors/ issues in FS2004 or FSX. (There is very little changed in FSX from FS2004 as far as AI, and it appears those are mainly side effects of changes for the user aircraft).Frankly, I'm happy when 65-75% of the AI traffic in my sim "flies correctly" because that's about the best I've seen at a heavy usage airport like London's 5 commercial airports, New Yorks' 6 commercial airports, Los Angeles' 5 commercial airports.Another potential issue for KLAX is there is a modified active AI zone for the airport / area. The 100nm distance is shorter to the south and probably to the east. This shorter AI zone results in aircraft bring initialized more in large clumps and taking longer to separate than normal.This behavior is also noticable in FS2004.If you want the most trouble free AI, you need to convert all your TTools based flightplans to TrafficDatabaseBuilder format and create new traffic .BGL files.Of course, for airlines like Southwest, you will have to double the number of planes, because of the minimum 45 minute turnaround requirement.

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Much that has been said, I agree with! I'd like to add some half-baked philosophy, if I may:It's not productive to approach Flight Sim from the view that a problem has a right side and a wrong side, and that if FSX is on the wrong side, you are automatically on the right side. FSX does have its share of problems, but so do the users. If you want to truly fix an issue, it's safest to assume that while FSX may be doing something you don't expect, you are probably doing something FSX isn't expecting either. That being said, there's simply dozens upon dozens of things to do in FSX. If you walk into a department store and try on clothes, you can't expect every single garment in the store to fit you (unless you are Tiger Woods, then the store will make sure everything fits). You try on something, and if it does not fit, you try something else. Sometimes the coat you really like is not available in your size. Sometimes you try on a shirt you didn't think you would like, and it makes you look like a superstar. In terms of FSX: lower your sliders, you are expecting FSX to do too much. "Constellations" of traffic occur when you have your traffic set too high, and this happens a lot with traffic add-ons. If you are having trouble getting even one flight to work without a hitch, may I humbly suggest that you try a completely different type of flying? The Beaver and the Goose make for highly entertaining bush-flying missions where you need niether KLAX nor any other air traffic at all. The helicopters provide a real physical challenge, as does the Extra. The Lear, and the CRJ will allow you to jet passengers to exotic destinations in the tropics where they maybe get an airplane once or twice a week, or for a different approach, try thopse smae flights in prop-driven aircraft like the Cessnas, the Mooney Bravo, or the King Air. Finally, my absolute favourite is the Piper Cub, where all you do is fly - no need to worry about FMC's and N1 readings. Although the Cub is quite easy to handle in calm weather, add some wind gusts in for a white knuckle challenge that would rival a 747 on the checkerboard approach to Hong Kong. There's no autopilot to help you out on a Piper Cub! Jeff ShylukAssistant Managing EditorSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

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>>From all I have read about AI, and maybe incorrectly written,>FS only generates flight plans and aircraft within 100 miles>of your aircraft, not all over the world. >Let me explain this.It is true that FS only loads the AI aircraft in a 108 nautical mile radius around your aircraft. But this does not mean that the traffic bgl's for all over the place are not being looked at by the sim.When your aircraft moves, this 108 nautical mile circle moves with you. And the sim places AI around you based on what is in *all* of your traffic bgl's. Logically then, the sim is querying the headers of ALL installed traffic bgl's you have installed, to determine whether or not it needs to load the AI plans or not, based on your location in the sim, and based on the time in the sim.If time and location match what is in the traffic bgl, then the sim puts the AI aircraft in the location that it is supposed to be at that time. That's an oversimplification because there are caveats etc. to where an AI appears etc. but in general that's what the sim does.Now, regarding your issue, I suggest running the airline AI slider no higher than 80%. The AI system was not designed to handle extremely large numbers of aircraft, and there are times when it can be overwhelmed.At KATL this is no surprise since AirTran and Delta both hub there.RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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Reggie,Very eloquently explained.Bottom line is large AI traffic sets will produce issues and it's all about how one manage's them and about one's expectations.Sorry to hear Richard has not had one problem-free flight. Some of the responses could have been a bit more helpful, but the point was that this is not an FSX-only problem.Knowing what goes on behind the scenes, I'm just grateful that I can run as much traffic as I do with as few problems as I encounter. I get bit by the traffic spawing bug every so often, but it's a small issue in the scheme of what's being represented by the sim.Bruce

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I love it - the more "bees" the better. More than likely, I have the largest AI environment on the planet (over 7,000 texture sets, 350+ aircraft types, and almost 2,000 airline *.bgl files). I run my AI slider at 100% and I don't care if the sky is crowded. I love it. This configuration makes the global airports really come alive.Regarding KATL - I live near Atlanta (actually 160 miles) and you can't go any where from where I live to anywhere else, unless you go through Atlanta (one of the busiest if not the busiest airport in the world). So, I'm very familiar with KATL. I can tell you that on a clear day Atlanta does look like a flight of bees in the air. They have 4 major runways and they have aircraft taking off and landing at the same time - on the same runways. Separation at KATL does not just mean in the air. :-)fb

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Yes sir...besides Delta and AirTran, you have other airlines, some of them international, going into and out of KATL. And not to mention the cargo carriers...I don't know the statistics but Hartsfield has to be up there with KORD, JFK, and a place like Frankfurt-Main EDDF or Heathrow or LFPG in terms of aircraft movements per day... ??RhettAMD 3700+ (@2585 mhz), eVGA 7800GT 256 (Guru3D 93.71), ASUS A8N-E, PC Power 510 SLI, 2gb Corsair XMS 3-3-3-8 (1T), WD 150 gig 10000rpm Raptor, WD 250gig 7200rpm SATA2, Seagate 120gb 5400 rpm external HD, CoolerMaster Praetorian

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According to 2002 data ATL handled 76.7 million passengers, making it the world's busiest airport as far as number of passengers. It overtook ORD in 1998 has hasn't looked back since.

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