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Guest UlfB

Antivirus and Dfrag

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Is anyone using AVG free version antivirus with FSX? Is the spyware program with it good? Also, has anyone used or using the ultimate Defrag program and is it any good..... Your help will be appreciated.RegardsLamar

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Lamar,I don't use any of these products, but I'd advise you to set up your antivirus to ignore your FSX installation directory. You don't want a virus scanner slowing your system down as FSX reads files. Consider your FSX installation directory to be "secured."Having said that, it then behooves you to ensure that you don't place anything into that directory (by default it is C:Program FilesMicrosoft GamesMicrosoft Flight Simulator X) that hasn't been scanned by your anti-virus prior to being placed there.By that, I mean, scan anything you download from the internet to install into your FSX directory.Cheers,

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I paid for AV for a number of years and still had problems. I now have free vervions of AVG on one computer and Avast on another. They seem about the same. They do not have active spyware removal. You have to do that manually. There are other freeware programs that do that also. And as fsxmissionguy stated you need to exempt FSX from scanning. I just turn AV off when I fly, but then I don't use real weather or other online flying often. As for defrag, I think that there may not be a freeware program that people here like. But I have to believe that any defrag is better than no defrag.Bob

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>Is anyone using AVG free version antivirus with FSX? Is the>spyware program with it good? Also, has anyone used or using>the ultimate Defrag program and is it any good..... Your help>will be appreciated.I haven't heard anything bad about AVG Antivirus, with the exception that it might miss a few very obscure viruses. This may have changed in recent weeks or months, so don't hold me to it. (I use NOD32, which has a large following in the flightsim community).I *DO* use UltimateDefrag with my FSX installation - it works quite well. UD lets you defrag and sort your files by alphabetical order. This works VERY well to keep the FSX directories in good order and it improves (however slightly) load times of the simulation. The more scenery addons (mesh, textures, roads and coasts, etc.etc.), the more useful a good defrag will do. A decent free alternative for UltimateDefrag is JKDefrag, which is a very VERY capable free defrag tool.-Greg

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I second Greg's opinion on NOD32. I did use Avast! but had a lot of problems with it in Vista 32. No problems at all with NOD32, and I've excluded my FSX folder from scanning and have no problems running NOD32 and FSX at the same time.Ulf BCore2Duo X6800 3.3GHz4GB RAM Corsair XMS2-8500C5BFG 8800GTX, Creative SB X-FiFSX Acc/SP2, Vista 32

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Thanks for that great advice! I will be sure that FSX is not scanned. That file will be off limits.RegardsLamar

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Thanks Bob, I'm getting some great sound advice from you guys and I do appreciate it very much as this will be my first adventure with FSX.RegardsLamar

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Thanks Greg, you know I found the NOD32 web site and that was my first choice for payware. Good protection with low or no impact on FSX. Thanks for telling me about JK Defrag. I will check it out! Thanks so much again.RegardsLamar

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Thanks Ulf, with you and Greg giving it a thumbs up.... I think I'll go with NOD32 as well. It has to be good with most of the flight sim community using it!RegardsLamar

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Hey FSX MissionguyHow do you get the AVG to ingnore scanning FSX folder?Thanks in advance for anyone.RegardsShri

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Lamar,I reponded to your other thread about FSX software addons, recommending a good payware anti-virus program over a freeware one. Good choice on Nod32.As I said in my other post, I did System Administration for the Department of Defense for over 25 years. If the freeware stuff was that good, we wouldn't have paid for the real stuff. I'm no doubt gonna get flamed by some folks here, but I don't care. You are playing with fire using freeware anti-virus and other "system utility" applications from the Internet. There is NO such thing as a "free lunch"...you pay a price for it...and run some huge risks.Some people swear by the freeware AVG. I won't touch it with a stick. Why? Not because it's "not a good program". It may/may not do the job for you. It's the User Agreement you sign on to when you decide to use it on your computer.Go to this site for starters. It's the U.S. Computer Security Response Team (US-CERT) website homepage:http://www.us-cert.gov/Start reading the stuff there if you want to get educated about protecting your computer. One of the links on this page takes you here (to their Security Publications):http://www.us-cert.gov/reading_room/index.html#newsOn this page you will find this link to their PDF file about "Software License Agreements: Ignore at Your Own Risk" publication:http://www.us-cert.gov/reading_room/EULA.pdfRead it. Read ALL OF IT !!! Now, go to the free AVG website, and read their "Privacy Policy" webpage here:http://free.avg.com/ww.privacyIf it doesn't make you shudder, it should. Here are some copy/paste lines from it:"...we have provided you this Privacy Policy to inform you how your personal information will be collected, tracked, stored, used, and protected...""With Whom Do We Share Your Information? Through some AVG Technologies websites, by selecting a region (language) option, you may be asked to share your personal information, such as your e-mail contact, with selected local AVG Technologies partners, such as distributors (the full list of which is available at our local websites) so that they can contact you, on our behalf, about AVG Technologies products, services or offers that we believe are important to you or your business and to provide you a local technical and customer support. WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO READ OUR PARTNER'S PRIVACY POLICIES BEFORE PROVIDING YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION."Note that if their PARTNER'S privacy policies differ from AVG's, you are screwed. You gave your consent for the AVG partners to do whatever they want with your personal information already as THEIR privacy policy may state."Other Offices of AVG Technologies Since AVG Technologies is a global company, we provide information on AVG Technologies products users to our worldwide offices (subsidiaries and affiliates) which are listed at www.grisoft.com/ww.contacts. The personal information that you have provided to us may be made accessible to these AVG Technologies offices for marketing and customer relationship management purposes. Also, in certain countries our outside contractors might undertake the collection, transferring, storage and processing of your information. By using an AVG Technologies website, product or service, you consent to any such disclosure to and use of personal information that you have provided, by AVG Technologies worldwide offices.""Links to other companiesFrom time to time, AVG Technologies websites may contain links to and from websites of our partner networks, advertisers or other third parties. If you follow a link to any of these websites, please note that these websites have their own privacy policies before you submit any personal data to these websites.""Co-branded websitesWe also link to co-branded websites...and the privacy policies of these co-branded websites may differ from this Privacy Policy. We encourage you to read the privacy policies on any co-branded website to which you link, and we disclaim any liability for the data processing activities of our business partners which will act as independent data processing controllers."The above entries are just from the free AVG Privacy Policy publication. Read the EULA for more stuff.Take it or leave it...there is no such thing as "free". There is no way, after reading the above, and the AVG free product EULA, that it is ever going to get near my hard drive. If all this "free" stuff was so darned good (and safe), why the heck isn't Corporate America (and the rest of the Corporate Economic World) using it? Not to mention your World Governments?Flame me if you want...already got lots of those T-Shirts. But if anybody equates "free" to the same as "safe", you don't understand how things work when it comes to Internet and Computer Security.Respectfully submitted,FalconAF

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I have always used AOL. I know ,I know its crap. But Ive used it for so long,I have had no real problems and now thats its free, well.....Anyways, Nothing and I mean NOTHING will clog up,eat resources,add stutters and kill performance worse than the McAfee Antivirus ,security,Internet saftey bla bla bla programs.Do not load them.I use alot of freebies with Crapcleaner,Spybot search and Destroy,Ad-Aware and a must, Enditall.You just need to be sure to disable the automatically check for updates on any program.Oddly enough, After all the raves about O&O Defrag, ruinning in per Nicks method over and over, FSX is slower than ever.Not in flight loading but preflight,loading terrain and planes, I can hear the HD churning and it takes forever.......This is with the complete/name.I also used the other popular defrag prog but to be honest, other than seeing all the pretty blocks all nice and neat, I cannot notice a difference in FSX.I have a dedicated FSX machine and strongly beleive that less is better.All of these freebies,defrags,tweakers,monitors,ect ect add up quick and can often cause more problems than they fix.

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JIMJAM,Most "gamers" having nothing but bad things to say about Symantec Norton System Works or Norton Antivirus and McAfee. Their biggest complaint is that they are "system resource hogs". Well...they "are"...but the "gamers" are missing a very important point about them.For the 25 years I was with the Department of Defense, we exclusively used Norton and McAfee. Why? They are NOT designed for "gaming computer security". They are designed to FULLY protect a computer and networked computers from just about anything that may attack them. They HAVE to be "resource intensive" to do this. And the fact that they had direct agreements with US-CERT to get the FIRST notifications of new viruses, trojans, etc, allowed Norton and McAfee to provide new signature file updates and threat protection within HOURS of something being discovered. Almost all other...especially freeware...antivirus programs took DAYS (some of them WEEKS) to get the new signature files out to the users. You were left completely vulnerable during this time. It's still the same way with many other anti-virus programs today.Corporate and government users aren't trying to get their computers to run their applications based on "Frames Per Second", like gamers do. They have other priorities...security being the most important one.Do I run Norton or McAfee on my home computer? No. They ARE too resource-intensive to allow something like FSX to run at it's best. But they certainly aren't a "piece of crap software" that a lot of people here like to call them. They do EXACTLY what they are designed for...maximum security on a computer or network...where the end-user NEEDS that level of security. Do I use freeware antivirus and system maintenance utilities? When it comes to antivirus protection, not a chance. There are excellent payware antivirus programs that don't leave you vulnerable to all those "Privacy Agreements" and "EULA's" that are totally insane. Nod32 is one of them, and it works very well for gaming and FSX.I do use Spybot Search & Destroy and Adaware. They are good programs with EULA's that don't compromise your personal privacy or security.I also use O&O. You should not be experiencing the slowdowns you have loading FSX because of using it. It sounds more like your anti-virus program is scanning your file usage in "real-time". Whenever FSX wants to load a file, the anti-virus program is scanning the file(s) for virus's first. What anti-virus program are you using? Is it configurable to allow you to tell it to NOT scan files in a particular folder on your system when you are running that application?FalconAF

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Excellent reading!!!!! I should know better, I worked for the Department of Defense for 32 years in DCAS (Defense Contract Administration Services) Quality Assurance and last 7 years as aircraft safety manager. Small world...... I don't think you will get hosed on this thread because everyone has their own opinion and rightfully so.... Sorry about the mix up, shouldn't have started two simular threads. You know that is scary when you read the small print!! Most people probably don't read the small print..... I did not. I'm deleting AVG from my experimental laptop. I think your reply will help a lot of other simmers..... It helped me understand about some free ware. Very good sound judgment!! Thanks again and anyone wishing to comment please respectfully do so.RegardsLamar

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I received a couple private inquiries about my posts above. Nothing sinister...but after getting them, I thought it might help some others if I expanded on my posts.Reference the free AVG EULA, which I recommended you also read, but didn't include any "cutpaste" items from it. Here's the link to it:http://free.avg.com/ww.93828Here's a "cutpaste" of one of the things from it you are agreeing to:"(ii)BY PROCEEDING TO INSTALL THE TOOLBAR, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND ACCEPT THAT, UPON ITS INSTALLATION, THE TOOLBAR WILL MODIFY VIA THE SETTINGS OF YOUR BROWSER THE

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This is a AVG/Yahoo IE toolbar, not the antivirus per se. Just do not install it. I don't even use IE, so I don't really care. And what about free Firefox browser then? Free T-bird email client? Did you find any hidden agenda in their EULA too? :)There might be good payware AV solutions out there that nicely protect you and still let you use your PC. But it is by no means McAfee! I didn't buy my PC so McAfee AV will run on it and take it out of my control! I think McAfee behaves like a virus itself, by completely taking over your PC and modifying lots and lots of settings. And still, despite bloating my system, it couldn't prevent me from getting nasty stuff that I had to troubleshoot for a couple of days! McAffee? - no way!There's always some catch-22 in most EULAs. I don't have time to read ALL the fine print. But it doesn't mean I do not protect my PC from viruses and my personal info from intruders! It takes a bit of learning to figure out how to properly back up your drives, how to configure your router, browser and firewall, where to look for signs of intrusion and how to clean up spyware. No payware will do it for you without completely bloating your precious resources and taking the wheel out of your hands. For a FSX-dedicated, not a web-server, system, AVG is just fine, as it does its job relatively well and does it nice and quiet. I saw some folks reported problems with FSX and AVG running together, but I never had any, not on my old PC, not on my Dual Core, not on my Quad Core systems.Cheers, =S.V.=Q6600 (4x2.40 GHz)nVidia Quadro FX 3400WinXP Home-SP2, FSX-SP2

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I heard a lot of good stuff about Nod but I personally never used it. I run AVG + "free" spyware tool from my ISP (Comcast), and I'm quite happy. I don't run my web server on this machine, and generally, I don't use it for active web surfing. Also, I try to keep this system for "FSX use only" so I do all home logistics, online shopping, photo editing and other stuff on my Mac laptop. My Apache web server lives on Mac Mini. For PC, I tried several other free AV solutions, and also Norton and McAfee, and AVG is my choice for now. =S.V.=Q6600 (4x2.40 GHz)nVidia Quadro FX 3400WinXP Home-SP2, FSX-SP2

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Relax, S.V.And let's clear up a few things you implied in your post above.1. I read EULA's and Privacy Policies to see if there is anything included in them that may be detrimental to my personal information or overall computer security. No, I didn't find anything in the Firefox or T-Bird EULA's...because I don't use them, so I've never read them. If you'd like me to look at them and make a recommendation, I'd be happy to.2. There is nothing wrong with McAfee. It doesn't "take over" your computer. A Network or System Administrator who knows what the heck he is doing (and any single end-user who wants to learn the same stuff) can control everything the product does...including the amount of resources it uses...which directly affects the level of security it will provide. A SMART Network Administrator overseeing a network of "uninformed users" WILL leave many of the advanced options enabled. This is to prevent the uninformed end-user from disabling/deleting security options that would compromise the individual's computer or the entire network. This is why a good Network Administrator FORCES an anti-virus scan of an end-user's computer when they turn it on. It ensures the anti-virus scan will be run on a regular basis. If you left it up to the end-users to run "periodic virus scans" of their own computers, you would hardly EVER get any of them done. Most end-users would care less about taking the time to run one.3. If you honestly believe "no payware (program) will do 'it' for you without completely bloating your precious resources and taking the wheel out of your hands", then there is nothing I can do for you. Other than recommend you get, in your own words, "...a little more learning..." when it comes to computer security. You are sadly mistaken.The AVG website boasts it has over 70 million trusted users blazened across the top of it's homepage. That's fine by me. Go for it. But that's a whole lot of "data mining" that is taking place for "collecting, tracking, transferring, and storing" of information for "marketing"...one of many things the Privacy Policy says you will allow it to do. If you are comfortable with that, by all means continue on with AVG. But if you think somebody isn't getting REIMBURSED for all of this, you are sadly mistaken. And they are getting reimbursed for the use of YOUR personal and private information. And they are depending on those 70 million people NOT to care one way or another about it...like taking the time to read the EULA and Privacy Policy, and understand what it means.Secure? Your stuff on your computer couldn't be any LESS secure with you agreeing to the Privacy Policy and EULA.FalconAF

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My personal philosophy is that I will NEVER use a virus product that:1. Does not allow you complete control of its affect on your system.2. That does not place your files at risk by doing things you may not expect.3. That resides too much in memory.4. That would not allow me to fully trust its ability to be uninstalled completely, leaving my system unaltered.5. That does not have simple, right-click on demand scanning of a file.6. Has a firewall feature that can't be turned off completely.So many times virus scanners and firewalls have been the root of many support issues. There have been threads where 2 or 3 people have tried to help a customer... "shut down your firewall..." "I did shut it down and the problem still happens..." "Go into your services menu and shut it down..." "It is completely shut down there, and the problem still occurs..." and then they come back again and said "I did a full uninstall of firewall product, then a system rollback, and now your product works fine. Thanks for all the help!"So, that being said, it is not possible to be 100% safe at all times, but you want to be more than safe enough, and this is done by having a security product that mixes well with your understanding in how to operate your computer relatively securely on your own.With all the above, I do recommend NOD32. It is not terribly expensive, and it does what I think most people need. It is what many flight sim people use.

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Steve,Couldn't agree more. I hesitated to "fully" recommend any particular product, but seeing as someone of your statue in the community has done so, I'll concur with your recommendation.And you made a very good point about many "free" applications people use from the Internet. You install them, then decide to uninstall them later. Problem is, they don't uninstall EVERYTHING they installed when you agreed to the original installation Privacy Policy or EULA. You may not be using the original product anymore, but the "extras" are still there. Does anybody here using the free AVG know exactly WHAT modifications to your browser DNS and 404 settings are being made? The EULA doesn't tell you. So, heck...just TRUST them. And if you uninstall AVG...are you sure the "modified" settings were reset back to "normal"? You aren't sure?Better do some research.....FalconAF

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Hey Falcon!I think the OP requested an advice on the AV solution for FSX-oriented rig, not for protecting an office network like DoD, with a super-sensitive documentation. >1. I read EULA's and Privacy Policies to see if there is>anything included in them that may be detrimental to my>personal information or overall computer security. No, I>didn't find anything in the Firefox or T-Bird EULA's...because>I don't use them, so I've never read them. If you'd like me>to look at them and make a recommendation, I'd be happy to.It is interesting to hear, but most of IT departments that I dealt with for the last several years in number-crunching industries and academia, endorse using Firefox/Mozilla as most safe internet means. Nothing is perfect of course, but I never heard of IT director encouraging users to run IE or any payware browser. >2. There is nothing wrong with McAfee. It doesn't "take>over" your computer. A Network or System Administrator who>knows what the heck he is doing (and any single end-user who>wants to learn the same stuff) can control everything the>product does...including the amount of resources it>uses...which directly affects the level of security it will>provide. A SMART Network Administrator overseeing a network>of "uninformed users" WILL leave many of the advanced options>enabled. This is to prevent the uninformed end-user from>disabling/deleting security options that would compromise the>individual's computer or the entire network. This is why a>good Network Administrator FORCES an anti-virus scan of an>end-user's computer when they turn it on. It ensures the>anti-virus scan will be run on a regular basis. If you left>it up to the end-users to run "periodic virus scans" of their>own computers, you would hardly EVER get any of them done. >Most end-users would care less about taking the time to run>one.I understand what you say but I disagree. Again, we are talking about single user here, not the cubicle farm. McAfee's functionality is not worth the invasion it does on your system. With every major update, it took more and more time to troubleshoot it, as it kept behaving like a virus itself - unleashed and uncontrollable, all system preferences messed up, all registry hooks deployed, connections intercepted, unscheduled scan threads started and get hung. I'd rather spend time tweaking FSX.conf or CPU settings then trying to get McAfee to the place it belongs. Yes, I'm an advanced user but McAfee is just ridiculous, it's not worth it, it is wrong to impose harsh restrictions on end-user, and gain such deep integration with a system. I could go on with its problems, but I was trying to completely forget a "McAfee-nightmare" and I'm sorry I succeeded in part :) >3. If you honestly believe "no payware (program) will do 'it'>for you without completely bloating your precious resources>and taking the wheel out of your hands", then there is nothing>I can do for you. Other than recommend you get, in your own>words, "...a little more learning..." when it comes to>computer security. You are sadly mistaken.What I said (or at least tried to) is that there is no complete payware or freeware AV that will provide you "one-click-protection" and still leave you the ability to rigorously use your system's resources. Besides having AV, you need to have to run spyware detection if it is not a part of the product, you need to monitor your network logs, you need to do backups, you need to play with router, you need to distinguish between healthy and potentially-infected links. If one program like McAfee tries to take upon all these issues, it also takes on many other things on your system, thus diminishing your ability to use/modify/configurate to your liking. I would leave a PC to such a solution if I didn't plan to actively use its resources. This works OK for file storage but not for gaming, video-editing, databse servers, computations, etc. ... And I did take a little more learning, that's why I don't believe in one-click payware!>The AVG website boasts it has over 70 million trusted users>blazened across the top of it's homepage. That's fine by me. >Go for it. But that's a whole lot of "data mining" that is>taking place for "collecting, tracking, transferring, and>storing" of information for "marketing"...one of many things>the Privacy Policy says you will allow it to do. If you are>comfortable with that, by all means continue on with AVG. But>if you think somebody isn't getting REIMBURSED for all of>this, you are sadly mistaken. And they are getting reimbursed>for the use of YOUR personal and private information. And>they are depending on those 70 million people NOT to care one>way or another about it...like taking the time to read the>EULA and Privacy Policy, and understand what it means.Falcon, I think you should relax a bit too :) Would you unleash a similar fury at Google for doing exactly just that? You are using Google, right? :)RespectfullyS.V.

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Hi FalconAF,"The AVG website boasts it has over 70 million trusted users blazened across the top of it's homepage."Well, I guess I'm one of these trusting users and pretty happy to be counted amongst their number.While I grant you there are special circumstances when it will be necessary, indeed mandatory, to be insisting on the paranoid approach for protection, I think for the average computer jockey like ourselves, who doesn't deliberately expose him/herself to risk, this has to be largely irrelevant.I've used AVG FREE for 4 years and have never had any significant issues with it until version 8.0 came along. It's user interface is, as ever, perfectly straightforward but, as Koroush Ghazi has stated:"unfortunately as is the trend with security products (especially free security products), the latest version seems to contain more intrusive and annoying things than before.". Fortunately he has done the donkey work for us and has posted advice to force the program to continue to behave in ways more familiar to us:http://forums.tweakguides.com/showthread.php?p=84601I decided to implement all his recommendations and, so far, have not been disappointed.If indeed routine mining of personal data is going on and being shared with AVG's partners then I'm not aware of it and certainly haven't received any unsolicited mail as a consequence. Maybe they are not interested in parsimonious Scotsmen like myself, although I'd hardly describe myself as being the archetypical example..lol!For me, AVG FREE does what it says on the tin and appears to have no effect whatsoever on the performance of FSX or FS9. I used to disable AVG prior to running my sims, but I tend not to bother nowadays and haven't noticed any hit.As far as I am aware, the only significant difference between the FREE and purchased version is the lack of support from Grisoft for the former. However, there is a forum where you can ask questions of other users:http://freeforum.avg.com/Mike

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Everybody relax. I'm a nice guy...REALLY! ;-)The original poster asked about antivirus programs, which implies he is also interested in security when it comes to his computing. He SPECIFICALLY asked about AVG, and I responded accordingly.I also never recommended Norton or McAfee for FSX users or gamers in general, for the reasons I stated in my above posts. They ARE resource intensive...but they do what they are designed to do for users who need the level of security they provide. And most users who need that level of security WON'T suffer a degradation of computer performance using them, in the sense that they don't drastically reduce the performance of a Word Processor, Spreadsheet, or Database application.I'm not trying to "dismantle" the AVG community. If you like it...use it. But to say it is "free" is totally false, unless the ONLY thing you equate to "free" is money coming out of your pocket.Do the math. With over "70 million trusted users", why aren't they SELLING the product ALL the time? If they only sold it for TEN DOLLARS (which would be a steal for a good antivirus program), they would have over SEVEN HUNDRED MILLION dollars in revenue. Not bad for only ONE product, ya think? But here's the problem. MOST of those "70 million trusted users" wouldn't BUY it in the first place. Why? They want something FREE instead. So unable to sell that many copies, and generate that kind of revenue, you have to resort to alternative methods of generating revenue. And make no mistake...they wouldn't be "giving away" ANYTHING...let alone possibly 70 million free copies...unless they were making money from doing so. They ARE a business, and have to "make a profit" to stay afloat.So where is all this revenue coming from for all these companies that "give away" their "free" products?Read the EULA's and Privacy Policies. "Data Mining" and the reselling of end-user information for "marketing" purposes (and other stuff in EULA's and Privacy Policies) is a COMMON activity on the Internet. Sorry, but they aren't gonna use my personal information or privacy to do that. Do you KNOW for SURE what is being used from your "personal information" when you allow that? Or HOW it is being used? Most people never worry about things like "Identity Theft" or the like UNTIL it happens to them. And when it does, they usually NEVER find out how it DID happen to them in the first place.Your "trust" is yours to give and keep as you see fit. Use it anyway you like. I choose not to give it to any company that uses a "Cascading EULA" or "Cascading Privacy Policy" like the AVG ones...especially when THEY THEMSELVES feel it necessary in their Privacy Policy or EULA to "...disclaim any liability from the use of your personal information by any of our associate companies...", etc, etc. What are they worried about? What have THEIR lawyers told them to worry about? IF it worries THEM so much that they have to put that "disclaimer" in their OWN policies/EULA's, then you better believe that I'M a "tad bit" concerned about it also. There is simply NO WAY to know what YOU, the end-user, have TOTALLY agreed to allow under these circumstances.I'm NOT saying AVG or Grisoft is a "bad" company. But what you are getting and using is certainly not "free" by any stretch of the imagination. And what they want you to allow them to do comes under the definition of installing "spyware" and "malware" on your computer. If you are OK with that, press on. FalconAF

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Hi FalconAF,"Most people never worry about things like "Identity Theft" or the like UNTIL it happens to them. And when it does, they usually NEVER find out how it DID happen to them in the first place."Oh now you're stretching the argument a bit. Of course most of us worry about Identity Theft - those who don't are certainly placing themselves at risk. Where I take issue with you is that you may be implying that Grisoft are in the business of deliberately seeking to obtain and distribute personal data for possibly nefarious purposes. If this were the case and became public knowledge then I'm quite sure that it would quickly be suicidal for them commercially. I trust them to use what limited info they obtain from me in a confidential manner and in such a way so as not to threaten my right to privacy. If I suspected for a moment that Grisoft had some ulterior motive for using such information then I would certainly drop AVG like a hot cake. I just don't believe that to be the case.Mike

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