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Naji

Fly!2 in the steps of FU3?!!

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I'm not surprised! Wasn't FU3 the first to go even before Fly! was released? Also looking at the forum traffic over at the MS side of AVSIM, how can any developer other than MS continue in competition? Bad thing about this is that FS is a "static" program, one has to put up with its bugs and shortcomings for at least two years before it is improved.Well, there is always X-Plane. ;-) To me it is more "dynamic" in the sense that its shortcomings and bugs are "polished" quite a lot during a version's life.I really find a good comparison in some flight models of X-Plane with those of FU3. At least when the models of either FU or X-Plane reach flying speed they tend to force you into a lift-off on their own ;-) With FS2k2 the models hug the ground like formula 1 racing cars at speeds where the tires would fall off in any real aircraft, one really has to force FS models to take off - not simulating much of a feeling of buoyancy as with FU or X-P!Pieter

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That's a very good point Pieter. MSFS users can witter on all day about how good the flight models may or may not be, but they DO have a tendency to stick to the ground like glue. Let's face it, when a REAL aircraft attains take off speed (in other words, the wings are generating enough lift(, then it SHOULD leave the ground by itself.On a personal note, I am still not using FS2002. I am currently waiting for Visual Flight's photographic quality UK textures to be released, since I am not satisfied with the scenery as it stands. Yes, I know that I waffled on a few weeks ago about getting to like FS2002, but it isn't anywhere near as good as FU3 or FU2.As I love saying........accept it, and move on !Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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>That's a very good point Pieter. MSFS users can witter on >all day about how good the flight models may or may not be, >but they DO have a tendency to stick to the ground like >glue. Let's face it, when a REAL aircraft attains take off >speed (in other words, the wings are generating enough >lift(, then it SHOULD leave the ground by itself. Geeeezzzz Chris!Then you still haven't trimmed your Aircraft properly!!! You know, realism. ;)You darn nut you!!! :)

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>Then you still haven't trimmed your Aircraft properly!!! You know, realism.He-he, no I think you are not clearly understanding what Chris and I are talking about/experiencing. ;-)Remember the trim tabs are situated on the elevator. It pushes the elevator so that the nose of the aircraft goes up or down. Now, with wheels firmly on the ground the nose can't go up or down below take-off speed. The elevator plays a very-very small part in lift over the wings, except by its changing of the aircraft's attitude. Chris, not being the pilot here, is 100% correct in his interpretation as well. The "massive" main wing surfaces will override, so to say, the elevator effect on the ground to some major extend. The aircraft will distinctly "inform" you it's time to pull back a little on the elevator to get the aircraft off the ground. No matter how good trimmed the control surface of the elevator is, the plane wants to fly at take-off speed due to lift over the wings and not really the position of the elevator. Due to the force of airflow over the elevator it is now willing, directly ascribed to the lift force of the main wings, to aid the aircraft in reaching a slight nose-up attitude which increases the lift force of the main wings to start the climb. I say again, trimming the elevator has no effect on the main lift of the aircraft's wings. It will only aid the pilot in applying less muscle force on the stick inside!!! What about aircraft that has no trimmers? We are not talking about: z o o m, and off-in-the-air-on-its-own we go, but the tendency of the aircraft to want to take off no matter the trimming of the elevator (but also the way the pilot feels the controls in the hands).I've tried FS, X-P and FU aircraft that has no trimmers and FS does not simulated main wing lift buoyancy even close to the real aircraft I flew myself in ground roll effects, while FU and X-P does it fairly well.PieterPS just a scratch on the surface of the theory here and not to flame Paul, yes? ;-)

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I wont get into a long endless debate with you here, as there is nothing to be gained. Pressure points, lift points, balance points, what type of airfoils, static angle of attack all contribute and may determine the need for trim.Are you talking FS2k2

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Paul,Actually, I have been flying a properly trimmed aircraft in FU3 for some time now. I decided that I should learn how to do it properly.With respect to any FU3 vs. FS2002 arguments, I won't be contributing. I have learned my lesson, and will simply state that I prefer the flight experience in FU3, plus the better and more easily accessed range of viewpoints.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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Guys, both are excellent in their own ways; ask me, I know them both by heart :). The sad fact remains that FU and Fly! are no more, and MSFS will reign supreme and unchallenged from now on...There is another sim that is competing with an MS sim big time, not a flight sim but a train sim; Trainz it is. I like both MSTS and Trainz but I have found that Trainz is superb and practical with lots of functionality; it reminds me so of FU3. I hope Trainz will continue to stand up to MSTS for a long time to come. We always need more than one product.

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Hard to say. MS has so much money that they don't have to do much to beat the competition--they simply outlive it. It's a bad situation for all consumers of software products.How is FlightGear doing these days?

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1. My apology for not joining this continued discussion at its time over the weekend. I was urgently called away and was at times not even near a phone, let alone a connected computer!2. If someone read in my comment again a comparison war between FS and whatever, they are mistaken! As Chris said it in so many words: "With respect to any FU3 vs. FS2002 arguments, I won't be contributing. I have learned my lesson, and will simply state that I prefer the flight experience in FU3..."Paul, I agree with what you said: "I wont get into a long endless debate with you here, as there is nothing to be gained.... Pressure points, lift points, balance points, ...". I also recognised the fact that you pulled Chris's leg. Fortunately I'm not that daft :-lol. However, I also don't want Chris now to take it seriously and suddenly starts to think that trimming was the problem that either he or me view FS in the same light!> Are you talking FS2k2

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Thanks to Pieter making note of this on the X-Plane forum, I figured I'd see the whole story.Pieter saysRemember the trim tabs are situated on the elevator. It pushes the elevator so that the nose of the aircraft goes up or down. Now, with wheels firmly on the ground the nose can't go up or down below take-off speed.That's obviously not true---------- as demonstrated in "soft field" takeoffs. By pulling back full elevator, the nose will tend to lighten far below actual takeoff speed. no matter how good trimmed the control surface of the elevator is, the plane wants to fly at take-off speed due to lift over the wings and not really the position of the elevator. Due to the force of airflow over the elevator it is now willing, directly ascribed to the lift force of the main wings, to aid the aircraft in reaching a slight nose-up attitude which increases the lift force of the main wings to start the climb. I say again, trimming the elevator has no effect on the main lift of the aircraft's wings. It will only aid the pilot in applying less muscle force on the stick inside!!! Again, this is false! Let's go back to the "soft field takeoff". The idea is to use full back elevator to get the nose off the ground & flying ASAP. The actual flight will begin below normal takeoff speeds but requires an instant push forward of the stick while speed builds in ground effect. Now......... let's say we're in ground effect approx. 10' from the runway. Speed is building & the force of lift is building! You really have to use some push to maintain that 10' because it really wants to climb! Yet the "elevator" is exactly what's keeping the aircraft maintaining 10' of altitude regardless of the speed & lift be generated. Same goes for the trim tab & effect it has on the elevator!!Now............ I have included some pics from FS2002 which dispell the argument of sticking to the runway. But.........TRIM is required, just like in real life!! In the first two pics, I've set trim slightly aft of takeoff position & let go of the stick. Notice the speeds of the aircraft lifting off by themselves. Pics 3 & 4 are soft field type takeoffs. I snapped the Baron pic at the instant the nosewheel is off the runway. It had become light before that.Keep in mind, that the percieved feel of rotating in real life will have to do with factors such as wingloading, main wheel position, T-tails, thrust lines, & some others I've forgotten! :)

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Let's get back to topic :)I never really used Fly, but I can imagine how the Fly fans must feel.But what is the future of MS Flight Simulator? Will we ever see FS2004? FS2006? Or will MS cancel FS alltogether? It probably doesn't make them a lot of money.

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I highly doubt that MS will cancel FS. It's been around for ages. Without competition, they may not advance it significantly (the add-on community is very good at filling in the blanks) but it won't disappear. Lots of people use it and it's not like the company can't afford it. I wouldn't worry.Nevertheless, I would like to see another GA sim come out (or two).

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