Almost giving up and still do not understand FMC

[Guest Raymond]

I guess I have written ten or so posts after buying and installing the new generation PMDG 737. When I installed the aircraft I went to FS page and created a flight (KLAX to KSAN), then choose a downloaded livery American Airlines 737-800. Now being completely ignorant of FMC, I merely checked in with ATC, received my clearance, connectd with ground and got runway to which I taxied. Then tower cleared me to takeoff and ATC directed me to KSAN and an ILS landing on runway 9.It was nice and all that but not as interesting as using my RFP 747. When I mentioned this fact on this forum about half the world yelled at me and said I wasn't using the wonderful facilities of PMDG. So I download a few manuals and a few tutorials. Every one of the tutorials demonstrated information that my FMC could not duplicate. Questions>>>>>>>1. How does FS's ATC interact with the informtion created in FMC? 2. Surely someone has created a tutorial that starts with turning on the computer and takes one through to the landing. 3. Why does the information on the screen of the FMC often not match the information on my screeen when I am following the tutorial line by line. 4. As ATC in FS9 takes you from A to B exactly following a direct line or VOR flight what is FMC for? 5. What am I missing here

[Mats_J]

Raymond,I'm sorry you are feeling this way about the NG. It is an advanced aircraft like the RFP 742 but with emphasis on computer based technology on the flight deck.I'll try to answer your questions. You may also want to do some advanced searching on this forum as a lot of answers has been given over time to the questions you are asking:>1. How does FS's ATC interact with the informtion created in FMC? As in real life you can never be sure the ATC will comply with the programmed route in your FMC. WIth FS ATC it will almost always be never. And this is because the FS ATC is so crude and basic. There are some work-arounds to make FS ATC better but I don't know them from the top of my head so you might do a search for those tips.You will get the real interaction with flying on some online network like VATSIM or IVAO. As the ATC on the other side actually is a human being he/she will be more able to dynamically interact with you and vice versa.What it all boils down to is to understand the technology on the flight deck to use the right technique at the right time.>2. Surely someone has created a tutorial that starts with turning on >the computer and takes one through to the landing. Most tutorials are expecting some basic knowledge about flying and FS and computers. Fred Clausen's tutorial is the best one for beginners on the NG and can be found in the AVSMI library, with Tim Metzinger's tutorial flights a good intermediate level. Real world NG driver Brad Marsh's Geezer guide is suitable for the advanced NG sim pilot.Loading the FMC with correct databases is crucial to successful use of the FMC and Terry Yingling has a good manual/white paper about this at his 'Terminal Procedures Forum' a couple of stairs down. Here's the link to the FAQ/Manual:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...mesg_id=7&page=>3. Why does the information on the screen of the FMC often not match >the information on my screeen when I am following the tutorial line >by line. It's quite hard to try to help you with this as you are not elaborating on what kind of mismatch you have between the FMC and the tutorials. One reason could be that you are trying to fly the tutorials with a different set of databases for navaids and procedures as the author was using while writing the tutorial. I know for sure that Tim's tutorial came with the set of navdata files he used when writing the tutorial. Also see my answer about navdata files to your question #2.>4. As ATC in FS9 takes you from A to B exactly following a direct>line or VOR flight what is FMC for? The FS ATC guides you from take-off to the entry of any flight plan you have loaded into FS and will also guide you off the filed route and down to the runway. But if you ask me in a very crude and unrealistic way. What happens in between those segments depends on what you have loaded into the FMC and FS. The flightplans loaded in the FMC and into FS has to be identical or ATC will tell you that you are straying away from your planned path.The FMC and the other devices on the NG is for your situational awareness and your flight planning while enroute. It is also used for calculating the most economical route/profile for the automatic flight system. And to take some workload of the crew. You should see this if you are used with the RFP 742.>5. What am I missing hereYou want me to be prefectly honest?.... ;-)Ok. It seems to me that you are lacking some knowledge of the systems of the NG. While doing the first tutorials and flight you would greatly benefit from having the manual shipped with the NG handy as well. And it's not a bad thing reading the mauals from start to end even before you start up the engines.Use this forum as a knowledgebase and do searches for your questions. During the two years the NG has been released a lot of knowledge has been stored here. And finally don't hesitate to post any still unanswered questions here . There are several well knowledged guys here and even some real world drivers frequenting this forum. Two of the most visible ones are Brad Marsh and Kris Heslop.I hope this will bring you back your motivation to learn how to fly the NG, its an awesome add-on to FS.Cheers,

[JET 1]

Seconding everything said by Mats, and also I want to emphasize that the main objective of the "game" or FS is not to comply strictly with default ATC. There is no need to feel that the NG FMC is useless because the procedures used by FS "robot" ATC don't require much of it's use. The ATC has severe limitations when it comes to comparisons with real world procedures. Actually, it's light years away from reality. As Mats said, you'll get more of that by flying online on vatsim or ivao.Many top addons like this NG have far since went beyond the limitations of many aspects of the default FS installation. That is why you might now feel it is too advanced. Once you really learn it and more about real life procedure, you might end up like some of us "veterans"; sometimes even the NG is not advanced enough :-lol

[Guest Hawkeyeted]

>It was nice and all that but not as interesting as>using my RFP 747. I, too, am an RFP 747-200 Captain with Globe Cargo. I can tell you unequivically that the 737NG is NOTHING like the RFP 742!>When I mentioned this fact on this forum about half the world yelled at >me and said I wasn't using the wonderful facilities of PMDG.Shame on them. Forums are supposed to be a place to get answers to questions, not ridiculed. (Exception is absolutely ridiculous questions like, "How do I turn on my computer" are the exception!)>Questions>>>>>>>1. How does FS's ATC interact with the>informtion created in FMC?It doesn't....at all. You NG FMC has nothing to do with FS9's ATC or flight planner. If you plan to use the FS9 ATC, you'll have to write the plan first with the FS9 Planner. Exception is if you own something like FSNavigator in which you can create your plan, then export it to FS9 and PMDG (or many other platforms for that matter). You then load you plan into the FS9 planner. That gets the ATC online. You then enter your plan via the FMC to tell you aircraft where you are going. (Conversely, if you used FSNav, you can just load the exported plan.)>2. Surely someone has created a>tutorial that starts with turning on the computer and takes>one through to the landing.Look for Tim Mezingers tutorial on this forum. Just do a search for it.>3. Why does the information on the>screen of the FMC often not match the information on my>screeen when I am following the tutorial line by line. Dunno???? It should, unless it is a beginners tutorial in which it doesn't go into the advanced function of the FMC.>4. As ATC in FS9 takes you from A to B exactly following a direct>line or VOR flight what is FMC for?Same thing, except in a much more robust way, in that the FMC keeps track of fuel burn, winds, airspeeds, etc. The FMC is tapped into EVERY SYSTEM on your aircraft.>5. What am I missing hereAs Mats said, you're just missing the system knowledge and FMC architecture. The best way to learn the darn thing is to fly it.Again, as Mats said, don't be afraid to post your questions!

[Guest glenb]

Raymond,Like others on this forum I hope you stay with it and not give up. I have looked at some of your earlier posts and, correct me if I am wrong but you can fly the aircraft but the problem is in using the Flight Management Computer (FMC) and the default Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 (MSFS) Air Traffic Control (ATC).There is no connection between MSFS ATC and the FMC. The MSFS ATC does not, and cannot, know you are using a FMC so ATC can vector you but that vector will not be in the FMC. So you must make a choice. Follow ATC or stay with the program in the FMC. If you stay with ATC you can fly using the auto pilot alone, no FMC. If you wish to stay with the FMC you can disregard ATC and use the FMC. The FMC controls the aircraft through the auto pilot via the two buttons on the Mode Control Panel (MCP) (where you see course, speed, heading, altitude inputs along with several buttons) LNAV (course over the ground) and VNAV (vertical path for climbs, level flight and descents).In my opinion the manuals that come with the product, especially chapter 8 will tell you about the FMC and how to enter information etc. It will only tell you some about how it works and how to use it in general. The tutorials from Fred, Tim and Brad will tell you how to use the FMC in a practical way but for a number of reasons there are inconsistencies. Those folks have provided the tutorials free of charge and have put much work into them. None of tutorials are perfect. The manual for the real Boeing 737 is also not perfect. Look at how many revisions there are for that. In this simulator it is not reasonable to ask the authors to make the corrections. So we must ask for help or try to figure it out ourselves with trial and error.Hope this helps. If you wish you can send an email with your questions.

[michal]

Why do you make it very difficult on yourself? First start flying WITHOUT ATC. You can fly the NG, use its FMC with no need for ATC. Then when you are comfortable with using the aircraft, FMC bring in ATC but remember that ATC in FS9 is far from perfect or realistic.My problem with tutorials - they can be helpful but they assume certain degree of knowledge. You better understand main concepts first, know what each function does before jumping into the tutorial. If the tutorial is your only source you will only be able to repeat what's in the tutorial and if something deviates just a little bit from what's in the tutorial you won't be able to handle it.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpg

[Guest Josve]

"3. Why does the information on the screen of the FMC often not match the information on my screeen when I am following the tutorial line by line."Maybe because the tutorial you followed was written for V1.0....and the layout of the FMC changed when you updated to the latest patch....Johnny"I'LL BE BACK"[div align=center]http://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/josve/aat.jpg ][/div

[Guest Raymond]

Ted, I am a very logical person who follows orders precisely. Now I read the manual that came with my purchase although granted not to the extent that I understood everything. Then I turned to page 8-14 of the preflight initialization process and attempted to duplicate the instructions. At first everything was exactly as advertised but then little differences began and then major differences to the point where it was useless. This is PMDG's manual and if I cannot follow it precisely and have it work, then where do I go. Certainly not to Tim Metzinger...tried that and had the same results. I made sure my Sids and Stars were up to date and Navdata and all that stuff. I just feel that if this were my product I would get someone other than all my pilot personnel and owners to create a tutorial that would work. Then the purchaser can delve deeply into the manual if they chose. But I would insure that a consumer could utilize my product and that would include the FMC. I believe since PMDG is run by pilots they sell their product believing the consumer is the captain of a major airline who likes to sim around on his day off. My two month frustration of trying to get FMC to fly my plane is annoying. RFP's 747 is complicated, but I can start it and fly it without autopilot from point a to b. I can also utilize the FS's IFR, etc. I can plot a course using VORs but I cannot fly the 737 with FMC. Anyway, someday somewhere, someone will create my magical tutorial that matches my 737 and even tells me how to enable the FMC.

[Guest Hawkeyeted]

OK, maybe our help will be more useful if you can tell us specifically where in the tutorial/FMC you are having difficulty with. I can assure you you can do it!Without knowing exactly what you are having difficulty with, my help will be useless. Right now, the only thing I can tell you is that the FMC only flys the aircraft in LNAV (Lateral Nav-This is what gets you from waypoint-to-waypoint), VNAV (Vertical Nav-Climbs/Decents based on FMC efficiency calculations), or the combination of both. If you are not in either mode, the MCP is controlling the aircraft (similar to RFP) with V/S mode, IAS/Mach mode, and VOR or HDG mode.Let us know what you are having trouble with!

[Guest skefford]

Raymond,Without addressing any of your specific questions, I would suggest that you forget about MS ATC for now. The FMC is a complex thing indeed. However, after just over 24hrs with it, I am at this moment flying through Timothy Metzinger's tutorial. And yes, there are a few discreperencies with the actual on screen stuff, but things change with updates etc., and no tutorial is perfect - it is more important to understand what you are doing than how. However, if you do have major differences, then it would suggest that something is wrong - it is so easy to miss a deatil, and everything after goes to pot.Steve

[Guest Raymond]

Ted, I have three tutorials. 1.PMDG manual. 2. Timothy Metzingers 3.Fred Clausens. All suffer the same problem, in that I cannot duplicate their plan. Let's take the PMDG manual as an excellent example. I start on Page 8-12 FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM INTERNAL FUNCTIONS. Everything seems well stated. Now to page 8-14 PREFLIGHT INITIALIZATION PROCESS. This is a flight from Dulles to Kennedy. Following line by line I am ok until I get to 8-17.It states once the origin,dest and flt no have been entered into the rte page it will look like this. But on the left side of my FMc screen I have DATA LINK NO Comm. Ignoring this I press on and on page 8-19 it states return to the RTE page 1 and not that SAVE prompt is now active. I have no save prompt. And on the left side of the page I do not have reverse and perf int but rather activate. As the remainder of the set up relies on SAVE and I cannot save, I am stuck. However I pressed on somehow by pushing per init but I do not get ACT perf init but rather just per init. 8-22 says upon completion of the perf init page the ni limit will be displayed at 6R LSK..no such luck. Pressing on I hit the takeoff page but my screen says NO STATUS NO ROUTE. Needless to say the rest is a mess. By the way I cannot seem to locate the process for initiating LNAV and VNAV. Further When I go the ARV/DEP page and go to KIAD Departures nothing is the same. On the arrival pages BIGGGIE is everywhen except on my screen and no ILS preix in front of runway numbers. I still do not understand why if I follow the companies manual page by page and line by line my results differ so from theirs. I would love to verbally talk to the Alpha and Beta guy who polished up this manual. Lastly, perhaps my Sids/Stars aren't right, although my sids page shows an up to date page. But why would a company produce a product that you cannot use without going all over the internet looking for stuff.

[JET 1]

>But why would a company produce a>product that you cannot use without going all over the>internet looking for stuff.Oh come on Raymond, that's what all of us do in the beginning. That's part of the hobby, seeking information. This has been said a million times on many addon forums but I'll say it again: There is no way a sim addon producer could (and would be willing to) include an ATPL level pilot training course with type rating for 737NG in a $30 product. The addon is complex because essentially, the real plane is also and it is targeted for the slightly advanced user. It does expect that you have at least some form of understanding about basic airliner systems. Therefore the manuals can't be written in a way where every step is spelled out for you.Perhaps it would be better if you set the 737 aside for a while and try something simpler. Then, when you feel like you want something a bit more advanced, go for it again. I'm getting a feeling that at the moment you are really not willing to learn what this 737NG has to offer.

[Mats_J]

Raymond,>Ted, I have three tutorials. 1.PMDG manual. 2. Timothy>Metzingers 3.Fred Clausens. All suffer the same problem, in>that I cannot duplicate their plan. Let's take the PMDG manual>as an excellent example. I start on Page 8-12 FLIGHT>MANAGEMENT SYSTEM INTERNAL FUNCTIONS. Everything seems well>stated. Now to page 8-14 PREFLIGHT INITIALIZATION PROCESS.>This is a flight from Dulles to Kennedy. Following line by>line I am ok until I get to 8-17.It states once the>origin,dest and flt no have been entered into the rte page it>will look like this. But on the left side of my FMc screen I>have DATA LINK NO Comm. Ignoring this I press on and on page>8-19 it states return to the RTE page 1 and not that SAVE>prompt is now active. I have no save prompt. And on the left>side of the page I do not have reverse and perf int but rather>activate. As the remainder of the set up relies on SAVE and I>cannot save, I am stuck. First I think we need to clarify the flight in the PMDG Manual is not a tutorial flight. It's just used to point to some of the basic features of the FMC in a logical manner. In several places the manual does some side steps and jumps that are not usual to the flight programming sequence. I would not use this as a tutorial flight but rather as a reference handbook. And I would start with Fred's tutorial which is written as a tutorial with the PMDG manual handy as reference.Now to your specific problems you mention:On page 8-18 second column last picture you do have the ACTIVATE prompt you are referring to displayed. But the further description of the ACTIVATE process doesn't continue until page 8-20, column 1, paragraph 4. Because the manual in between this describes the SAVE, and LOAD flightplan procedures.There is also a useful reference of the ACTIVATE function on page 8-15, 2 column, last 2 paragraphs.But again don't expect to use the manual as paint-by-numbers. Once yuo have pressed the ACTIVATE key the EXEC button should lit up as per the manual. Once you've pressed the EXEC button you should have an active flight plan and you should see SAVE and REVERSE on your CDU.>However I pressed on somehow by>pushing per init but I do not get ACT perf init but rather>just per init. 8-22 says upon completion of the perf init page>the ni limit will be displayed at 6R LSK..no such luck.That's because you haven't ACTIVATEd and EXECuted your flight plan route.>Pressing on I hit the takeoff page but my screen says NO>STATUS NO ROUTE. Needless to say the rest is a mess. By the>way I cannot seem to locate the process for initiating LNAV>and VNAV. No wonder as you have uninitialized parameters in the FMC. And using VNAV and LNAV requires a fully configured FMC so forget about those modes until you've conquered the FMC. :-) >Further When I go the ARV/DEP page and go to KIAD>Departures nothing is the same. On the arrival pages BIGGGIE>is everywhen except on my screen and no ILS preix in front of>runway numbers. This is due to the databases changing constantly. There is a note about this in the PMDG manual at page 8-24, column 1, paragraph 4. And there is nothing any author would or should be expected to do anything about. That would mean that every tutorial written where navigational aids are referenced has to be reviewed and possibly rewritten every month as that is how often the nav aid database changes. Again Tim's tutorial originally had references to what database was used and the database was shipped with the tutorial. Just to avoid thigns like the above. In your case I would either try to get a hold of the database that was used while writing a particular tutorial, or try to improvise and see the similarities, not the differences, between the tutorial and what you are facing on your 'flightdeck'.>I still do not understand why if I follow the>companies manual page by page and line by line my results>differ so from theirs. I would love to verbally talk to the>Alpha and Beta guy who polished up this manual. Lastly,>perhaps my Sids/Stars aren't right, although my sids page>shows an up to date page. But why would a company produce a>product that you cannot use without going all over the>internet looking for stuff.This paragraph makes me somewhat baffled... The manual never states it is a page-by-page, line-by-line tutorial. Or at least I haven't found a reference to that extent.I think the community should be greatful for the individuals, beta testers or not, who takes their time and effort to produce tutorials and whatnot that will help us to master the advanced technology modeled in this sim.Please don't take out your frustration on the people who are trying to help you. The PMDG NG is fully functional without using the internet looking for information. But I agree there is a lot of information out there which will make it easier to learn it. On the other hand I doubt any of us would have the pleasure of learning the NG if the internet wasn't there in the first place. An finally I wouldn't be able to write you this response which I hope will help you in your quest to master the NG. ;-)Hope it helps,

[kmanning]

Hi all,I haven't tried it yet but I don't think the ATC in FS will interact with the FMC unless you enter the information used when you created your flight plan in FS. I haven't used the ATC in FS lately because ATC in FS does not give actual real world procedures. The thing that would irritae me more than anything is that ATC would give me a heading or procedure and 2 seconds later give me another heading or procedure. It would also tell me to fly a certain heading and then put me back on the same heading I was already heading. It would do this probably 10 or 20 times throughout the flight and this just doesn't happen in the real world, not to mention that it's constantly give me different procedures within a short time frame. ATC talks to the same aircraft way too much and gives too many different procedures to the same aircraft within a short time frame. The pilot is flying the airplane in a smooth fashion, not constantly being bothered by ATC giving unusal procedures. I like to use the ATC but it just doesn't work like the real world.Ken.

[Guest aidanybbn]

Hey all,I too am new to the PMDG 737NG. I too was overwhelemed when I first loaded it but now, I dont know how I lived with out it... Once u have one flight that is smooth from start to finish, you will remember everything!! Here are some Tips from a newbie (myself) to those havin trouble.I look on local Vatsim sites and get a flight plan eg (Vatpac.org) Flight YBBN (Brisbane AUS) to (YSSY Sydney AUS)I find the SIDS & Stars for the relevant Airports and print them all.Load up FS and get FS ATC to clear me in the relevant direction i am flying (In this Case South) They give me the runway and I proceed to program the fmc (Not Including arrival). Once FMC is complete (AS PER the Tutorial) i fly the Route as per the FMC & Flight plan, keeping in touch with FS ATC to give me flight followings & radar contact (For traffic alerts etc). Once I begin my descent, I prepare the arrival and prepare to program my STAR. Once I am in range I tune to YSSY and get clearance to Land on the active! I Program the Star, fly the star and make the approach.The whole time FS ATC knows where I am, lets me land on the active, traffic alerts, Vectors if required & taxi followings.Cheers,Aidan