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michal

MD-11 Flaps for t/o and fuel planner

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Hello,Im looking for any charts or manual with explained philosophy of choosing flaps for takeoff. I cant find this in PMDG manuals.Secound is question about fuel planner is there any available for MD11 ? Maybe some charts/manual ?ThanksChris

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Hello,I'd also like to add to this.I'm currently setting up a flight (EGCC-ESSA), I know that you use the FMS to calculate the fuel required but I can't seem to figure it out.Could someone please advise?Regards,


Adam Crossley
Cheshire, UK.
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It's not really too tough once you've done it a couple of times gents. The key is to firstly just enter your entire flight plan and then make a rough guess (15k lbs/hr +taxi,t/o,alt,reserves, etc.) and enter that figure on the weight init page. Then check your prog page and see what your EFOB value at destination is. Acurate estimating of the winds gets more important the longer your flight is of course. Once it all looks good, enter your fuel value in the fuel init page and load fuel via the FMS shortcuts in FMS mode. If you use ASX as I do, it will give you the average and individual wind speeds along your entire route. This method has done well for me and it's relatively accurate at the end. If you don't have a 3rd party weather prog, estimating a 40kt headwind as a general rule will usually suffice,.....usually. :) Jay EklundCAT VI Senior Captain KDENhttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/812321/764.png


Jay EKlund

UVA/GCVA Pile-it

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Thanks Jay.The 15K per hour I understand, but how much fuel in lbs do you use for taxi, t/o, alt, reserves, etc. How is this worked out?Thanks again,


Adam Crossley
Cheshire, UK.
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While that is a handy trick, surely it's not done that way in RW ops?? Did they forget to add fuel planning charts to the documentation?- Bill


- William Ruppel, CYKF, VATSIM 816871

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Flight planning goes beyond the scope of this discussion as it can get quite deep but the good news is, the FMS will figure all that out for you. Just make an estimate and check your landing weight on the weight init page and fuel at destination values on the prog page the to be sure you're within limits. If EFOB on the PROG page shows 60k and LW exceeds 440? on WEIGHT INIT page, you know you have far too much fuel onboard, if EFOB says 0.0, you know you'll need some more. There are a lot of good resources online to help with flight planning. The reference material at my VA for instance , http://www.united-virtual.com/ ,is first rate. Jay EklundCAT VI Senior Captain KDENhttp://online.vatsimindicators.net/812321/764.png


Jay EKlund

UVA/GCVA Pile-it

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Guest FrancoisH

When you set your fuel for any flight, just put a higher value than the quantity you think would fit your flight.Look at the "EXTRA FUEL", that's the captain touch in the total fuel you'll use and finally adjust finely to reduce this EXTRA as what you want.It will update the trip fuel and everything to your new weight.And then you put the quantity needed in the refueling next page and then do refueling and you're set for take-off. After refueling, don't forget to put the new TOCG into the init page.You still be able to do that trough FS Build or similar program like Flight Operation Center to do it "more profesionnaly" but I so like this way because it avoid you spend too much time calculating your fuel and this is great for online flights you decide only one hours before starting it and let you more time to get the charts and make your flight plan accordingly and to focus on the flying part ;)Regards.

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Guest BlueRidgeDx

In the real-world, a dispatcher does all the work for you. But we don't use fuel planning charts, its all done using specialized software.It could be done manually, and for many years it was. But with the computers, we can be far more accurate in our planning. Trying to do similar planning in FS is very difficult.There are many interdependencies that take place. How much fuel you can take depends on how much payload you want to carry, which is limited by runway length and conditions, which is in turn determined by things like optimum flap use, FLEX or MAX thrust, and deferred equipment. Then there's the issue of determining the actual route to be flown, which is determined largely by ATC restrictions like AFP's, CDR's, SWAP's, Playbook routes, and tactical reroutes. Its further affected by enroute weather phenomena like thunderstorms, turbulence, and winds aloft, as indicated by SIGMETS, Convective SIGMETS, and CWA's.Of course, as the route changes, so do the fuel requirements and then you're back to square one determining whether you can even get off the runway. Sometimes, you'll even find that you have to limit your takeoff weight in order to comply with your Max Landing Weight. That would be very rare on a long-haul, but for short flights with high payload, its a typical limiting factor.I haven't spent too much time looking for a program that simulates all of that stuff for FS, because its too much like work.Regards,Nick

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Guest FrancoisH

The best I do myself for small flight over Europe is to use my En-Route charts, look at the wind map at my cruise FL as well as significant weather maps.Then I chose a route, look at the related RAD documents and try to find one that go trough the CFMU public validator. I think I can't do so much that that...If I have the time to get more into it, maybe a day I'll get FOC and try to be a bit more next to the real dispatcher work.Regards.

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Thanks for the insight, Nick.Don't suppose that software is freely available? ;-)- Bill


- William Ruppel, CYKF, VATSIM 816871

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>Don't suppose that software is freely available? ;-)No, this is expensive software usually provided to airlines by someone like Jeppesen.However there are some imitations coming freely into the market .. for example the recent announcement by www.flightaware.com. This may not be exactly what the airlines are using but this free tool is good enough to plan (real) domestic biz-jets flights (you can add more aircraft types) in USA and comes with all the weather/ATC/TFR/winds-aloft/minimum-cost capability. In my opinion this is going to be much better tool than any FS-only flight plan building software. Michael J.http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9320/apollo17vf7.jpg


Michael J.

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Hello,I gave my flight (EGCC-ESSA) a go last night, 30 mins into the flight I got all manner of problems. I was cruising at FL370 all had gone well so far when all of a sudden the aircraft lost speed, then started to fall out of the sky, luckily it recovered and then ascended back to FL370 and to it's cruising speed. Then the warning light started flashing saying I had CoG problems which led to me just ending the flight.I don't understand what went wrong, I followed the process in the tutorial but based it on my new fuel/aircraft weight.Surely there must be an accurate way of loading this aircraft with fuel, for me until I get a program/solution that does this the MD-11 is going to have to stay in the hanger, due to health and safety issues.Regards,


Adam Crossley
Cheshire, UK.
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How much fuel should remain in tanks after flight without any go arounds holdings etc. ? I know it depends on alternate airport but there must be typical value like 3000kg for B737.And what about flaps for takeoff ?

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Guest BlueRidgeDx

>How much fuel should remain in tanks after flight without any go>arounds holdings etc. ?The most accurate, but not necessarily the easiest answer is to quote the FAR's. I assume that by your use of kilograms in your question that you're not from the States, so the answer may be of limited value to you...Here's the book answer for Part 121 Domestic operations:"No person may dispatch or take off an airplane unless it has enough fuel--(a) To fly to the airport to which it is dispatched;(:( Thereafter, to fly to and land at the most distant alternateairport (where required) for the airport to which dispatched; and© Thereafter, to fly for 45 minutes at normal cruising fuel consumption..."In the case above, you should land at your alternate airport with not less than 45 minutes of fuel remaining. However...I doubt very much that any US operators of the MD-11 actually operate under Part 121 Domestic rules. It is far more likely that they operate under FAR 121 Flag or 121 Supplemental rules. Even so, as long as the flight is operated within the 48 contiguous states, the above citation may be applied. Otherwise;Part 121 Flag & Supplemental rules are as follows:"No person may release for flight or takeoff a turbine-engine powered airplane...unless, considering wind and other weather conditions expected, it has enough fuel--(1) To fly to and land at the airport to which it is released;(2) After that, to fly for a period of 10 percent of the total time required to fly from the airport of departure to, and land at, the airport to which it was released;(3) After that, to fly to and land at the most distant alternate airport specified in the flight release, if an alternate is required; and(4) After that, to fly for 30 minutes at holding speed at 1,500 feet above the alternate airport (or the destination airport if no alternate is required) under standard temperature conditions."In this case, I can't remember whether or not you should land with the 10% route reserve or not. Its been a while since I've released a flight overseas, and when I was doing it regularly, we frequently conducted "Re-dispatch" operations which involved the inflight juggling (reduction) of required reserve fuel in order to reach the destination. This really complicates the issue even further. Therefore, off the top of my head, I'm not sure of the correct answer here.I'm sure one of the MD-11 advisors will be able to say with far more certainty. In any event, you definitely should not be landing with less than 30 minutes of fuel, with the possible addition of 10% of your trip fuel added to that number.Regards,Nick

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The 2nd INIT page in the MCDU/FMC address each of those 4 Part 121 Flag & Supplemental rules. I am pretty sure I read this in the FMC manual that comes with the PMDG MD-11. What I've been doing is using FSCommander's estimate (you could to this with the MSFS flight planner as well) and then adjusting up using the FS Functions of the MCDU/FMC. Definately not as cool as using the charts from the FCOM, or dispatch software, but it does the trick. When heading westbound in the middle latitudes, ensure that you put in some headwind on the first INIT page. Similary, ensure that you put in some tailwind if heading eastbound (in the middle latitudes).Sadly, I've found it difficult to locate a used FCOM on the internet - essco doesn't have one.


Jeff Bea

I am an avid globetrotter with my trusty Lufthansa B777F, Polar Air Cargo B744F, and Atlas Air B748F.

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