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VFR Panel View or Landing View for 767 PIC

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Hello PIC addicts,Jumpseating on a 767 (cargo), the captain left for the bathroom and the FO ask me if I wanted to seat down on the captain's seat. I couldn't believe the offer but of course I didn't refuse. When I sat down, to my surprise I noticed the reduced field of view of the pilot as opposed to what is presented on the 767 PIC panel. From this view point the pilot can just see the A/S, EADI and the left top corner of the windshield.Eric was working on a "landing view" prior to the realease of FS2k2 but I never saw it anywhere, I don't know if it was never finished. I downloaded the VFR panel view ( pic2k2.zip) and I was surprised about how much I liked it. For some reason the outside view gets rendered in a much more realistic way with these expanded views (Paul's 707 panel has one, 737 DF has one). The night landing looks extremely similar to the real thing. I flew the Lagoon 8 approach to TJSJ where you line up with runway 10 and you circle to runway 8 at about 450 feet. The experience is so realistic with this type of view that it is worth recommending, not to mention higher frame rates. Of course the panel is required to manage systems, FMC and monitor configuration. But during takeoffs, landings and taxi I believe there is need for a "Captain's View" to correctly depict the world outside from the captain's chair. A good time to switch to this view is after being fully configured on landing and above 1000 ft on takeoff. The only problem with the "VFR View" is that is doesn't have any real moving gauges that you may want like the A/S, EADI and Altimeter (the VS would not be in this view since you can get vertical info from the G/S or VASI)A while back there was a post titled "VFR Panel View for 767PIC FS2002" where some PIC users thought this panel was not needed because they claimed that if you are at the right weight the default panel view is accurate. I think they were resenting criticism about the panel view not being correct. While it is true the view is accurate, the main panel view is not realistic. No pilot has ever the whole panel in sight while flying a 767 or any other airplane for that matter. I fly a 19 pax turbo prop and my field of view is very similar to what I am describing: the top left portion of the panel and them the ADI, A/S, etc... I am wondering if it is possible to create like the VFR panel but with some moving gauges (like on Paul's 707 Pilot's view). A view with only some of the 767 pic gauges or is there is a limitation in 767 PIC of creating a second view with moving gauges. I would also like to know what other PIC fliers think about this. Any comments?Best Regards, Pedro

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Guest Dan_Pergau

Hi Pedro,You have convinced me to try it... a man with your credentials liking an addon such as this has got to be a good sign.Dan

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Guest

Hi Dan,Well, I'm not sure what credentials are those but in my opinion when flying in this view I really get the sense of flying as I get get it with the other landing views like the 707 and 737 DF. Try it at night and you'll se what I'm talking about. The new AETI 747 looks like will also have this view available when it's done. It seems to me that 767 PIC deserves a landing view that includes the top portion of the panel like the EADI, AS and Alt, UI don't know if it is possible however.... Pedro

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I agree that landing view would be nice. But from what I heard/seen the DF737's landing view does not include EADI which in my opinion is a must.Michael J.

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I agree that it would be "nice" to have a landing view. I doubt the PICTeam would take time to do it at this point since it is certainly not a "necessity" since the primary view works fine for all flight phases. But if someone was to obtain permission from the Team to do a new landing view panel, it certainly should stretch low enough to include the top three working instrument gauges - airspeed, ADI and altimeter - within view.

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Guest Lobaeux4

I think a VFR panel would be great. For instance, that new Debonair uses a pretty novel way of getting a 'VFR' panel that works. Just "grab" the panel and pull it down, also pulling down the scenery window as well. I wonder if this would work.Joe

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Hi Michal,First time I saw the VFR panel, I realized it didn't have a VS or AS or ADI and I thought that it would be unusable but then I thought that when I am landing I just need to look outside and look at the airspeed so I display the airspeed and altitude with control z and just look outside at the VASI and believe me it's great!. Before you see the runway you can stay inside looking at the panel. I was wondering if in 767 PIC it is possible to set up a second window with working gauges or if there is something about the gauge design that prevents it. Best Regards, Pedro

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Hey Pedro,Yes it is very possible!http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...7de57ed536c.jpgNotice how I have added the altimeter and VSI to my EHSI control panel window. All the gauges shown are undocked and on my right monitor, leaving my center display at full screen, what a spectacular view you have on landing!This is an older shot, and you can see I've since moved the EHSI on to the right monitor.http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...e444a2ba2c2.jpgAdding any gauge to a window is not too hard (I did it with no gauge programming knowledge, just trial and error), and when I get some time, I plan on adding a few more gauges to a new window I can undock and move to another monitor (like the EICAS CRTs, gear handle, caution panel, etc.). I use the Pegasus EADI so I don't need the airspeed indicator, but I could add it if I needed it.Regards,Steve Dra

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Yep Joe,pulling the panel down and resizing the outside view works fine, and I used to do it. The problem is that pulling the panel down far enough to make a difference hides the VSI, and a few other nice to have instruments. Now if there was only a way to undock those instruments and place them on their own window... Hmmmm ;)Regards,Steve Dra

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Guest

Hi Steve,I have the undockable gauges and they are really great. I have Paul Golding's 707 and I am was very impressed by the sensation of flying and realism that you get using what he calls the Pilot's View and Landing View. What Paul did was to replace the rear view and the look down view with 2 forward views, one a bigger close up that the other. So for example, on 767 PIC one would have the ADI, AS and ALT and the forward view on one (for takeoff,approach and landing)and the other one just the dash board like on the VFR panel pic2k2.zip (for taxiing or visual only landings (no ADI)). I don't know yet if it is possible to set these views like Paul did with the 767 PIC gauges. Also, can a view be set up while showing half a gauge? I am going back to learn how are these files configured and see if it is possible. I wish I knew more about the panel.cfg file but I am reading the SDK and looking at examples to learn.I like using the undockable gauges for the same effect but I really prefer the type of view that Paul created on the 707 panel much better because it gives you the Captain's seat perpective. The gauges while accurate remind you that you are looking at a computer while the landing view kind of looks like the real thing. You have to try it to appreciate. Thank you for the response. Let's see what happens. I am amazed no one has done this before... Best regards, Pedro

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Hey Pedro,I'll install Paul's panel tonight and see if I can make similar views for our beloved 767 panel.The only problem that I can see right now is that I'd have to use portions of the copyrighted pic bitmaps to make the view (I have no time or skill to create my own) so if I did create a vfr panel, I couldn't distribute it.If I can figure out how to do it, maybe I can provide the instructions on how I did it (with Wilco's permission of course).I'll keep you updated.Regards,Steve Dra

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Hey Steve,Man it would be great if you could make those adjustments to the "office"! Do keep us posted!By the way, enjoyed the thread about your landing in Boston.Regards,Jay

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Guest

Hi Steve,If you can figure how to do it, please let me know. I understand the issues with the copyright of the panel. My intuition tells me that if someone can work it out, it will be so popular that a solution to the copyright issue will be found. Landing at night with these views is amazingly realistic. I can almost imaging what it'll look like on 767 PIC. I actually think that any panel worth flying deserves one. Keep in touch, Pedro

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Guest ilh

How about something like this?http://www.sls.lcs.mit.edu/ilh/fs/pics/landing1.jpghttp://www.sls.lcs.mit.edu/ilh/fs/pics/landing2.jpgAll I did was cut off the bottom 292 rows of the forward .bmp file. Gauges and the MCP seem to work, although I really haven't tested it at all. I don't know what the implications are for having a gauge on the main panel and the landing panel. Maybe that is bad news.I hacked this view by removing the main panel with W and then shift-8 to pop this up. I'm sure something smoother could be set up to switch views. I was just trying to see what the concept would look like, so don't go asking me for this! Besides, the bitmap is copyrighted.Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

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Lee,This is the landing view that would tickle my fancy ... real dream come true.Any chance you could share secrets how you obtained this result. ?This would be a panel view I would switch to say after I lowered the landing gear.Michael J.

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Guest ilh

As I suspected, something isn't kosher. FS2002 crashes with the phone home message when I try to leave PIC. Also, the switching back and forth is really kludgy, but that might be fixable using something like the contributed click spots for the PSS Airbus (a .cab file defining simple XML gauges).Basically, all I did was delete the bottom 292 rows from the B767Wforward.bmp, save as B767Wlanding.bmp. Then I added/replaced the following section in the panel.cfg:&l;Window07&r;file=B767Wlanding.bmpsize_mm=1280, 388position=6visible=0ident=7gauge00=B767WAfds!MCP, 733, 15gauge01=B767WAfds!SMC, 824, 180gauge02=B767WAfds!Nav1, 537, 24gauge03=B767WAfds!Autoland, 620, 163gauge04=B767WAfds!MasterSwitch, 485, 37gauge05=B767WAfds!RadarAltimeter, 561, 255gauge06=B767WAfds!AltAlert, 722, 250gauge07=B767WAfds!InstrSelect, 0, 398gauge08=B767WAfds!GASwitch, 1080, 631gauge09=B767WAfds!Gear, 1179, 224gauge10=B767WAfds!Autobrakes, 769, 518 gauge11=B767WAfds!OMI, 703, 403gauge12=B767Wlight, 0,0gauge13=B767Wairspeed, 92, 224, 168gauge14=B767Wvsi, 556, 406, 136gauge15=B767Waltimeter, 607, 245, 148gauge16=B767Wrmi, 103, 414, 158gauge17=B767Weadi, 291, 172, 221gauge18=B767Wecu, 700, 601, 197gauge19=B767Wehsi, 289, 408, 227gauge20=B767Wclock, 553, 550, 138gauge21=B767Weicas, 934, 180, 225gauge22=B767Wleicas, 934, 409, 225gauge23=B767Weng, 753, 384gauge24=B767Woilw, 790, 498, 95gauge25=B767Wesw, 925, 629, 150gauge26=B767Wgpws, 760, 239, 150gauge27=B767Wtrp, 1178, 163gauge28=767FMC!FMS, 754, 216, 300gauge29=767FMC!XNAV, 0, 600, 300Note that I didn't even bother (yet) to remove gauges that are out of view. I also can't remember what used to occupy Window07 (shift-8).Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

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Guest

I don't know it's possible to ask PIC team to add a section for the users edited file. It'll get authorization and relive the product, expanding the resources of PIc767.

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Ok Pedro,I installed Paul's 707 panel (very nice BTW) and saw the landing view you wanted.I saw Lee's post down the line and did the same thing initially. But what you said you really want was a view from the pilot's perspective.Here it is:http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf6ff4d1624081e.jpgAs you can see I still have A LOT of work to do! I need to align and size the gauges, work on the aspect ratio of the COPYRIGHTED bitmap image, and most of all...figure out a way to prevent some UGLY fatal exception errors when I hide and redisplay my EADI.To answer some questions that will be asked:1. Yes, I can put any gauge on the panel (like the VSI and the radar altimeter) and will after I take care of other issues.2. Yes, I can put the center pedestal on the panel.3. No, I am NOT a gauge programmer or panel designer, I used the trial and error method to get what you see in the screenshot.4. Yes, production of this panel will be hampered by my dog's intense desire to de-gas himself (to put is nicely) while lying directly behind my chair (he has already hampered production 3 time this evening!)5. Yes, my dog's gas can peel paint off walls!6. No, I will not shoot my dog. All is not good in PICville yet simmers, but this screenshot represents about 4 hours worth of work, and I will complete it and release it IF (did you notice the word IF is capitalized? Yes, I'm shouting that word):1. first and foremost, I get permission from the owners to do so.2. I can get all the kinks worked out (to my satisfaction).Here is where you guys (and gals) can help me.1. I've done the hard part, why don't one of you see if you can get me the permission I need to release this thing (or point me in the right direction). I'd much rather spend time getting the panel ready instead of cutting through all the red tape.2. Find some gauge programmers to help me get past some problems that I can't figure out (to be listed later, I'm tired now and have to sleep).3. DO NOT (there is that all caps text again) bombard me with email asking me to send it to you, or tell you how I did it, or even how much I suck because I have not released it yet, etc.For those who do not know me, you'll find that what motivates me is a sincere desire to contribute to the "community", and simple respect of my wishes. You cannot influence the first one, but you sure as heck can influence the second one. :) And MOST important, I have a day job, a family and other interests...(yeah I know, like that matters to you):)I've gotta' get to bed now. 5AM is 3.5 hrs. away and if I don't get at least 3 hrs. sleep before confronting Atlanta a.m. rush hour traffic, you'll be reading about me in the paper! :-lolRegards,Steve Dra

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I still think Lee's version provides the best pilot's perspective plus the amount of real estate taken by his panel does not exceed about 35% of the total screen - so there is plenty of outside view left.Michael J.

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Hey Michael,I like Lee's panel setup better too (I really won't use the panel I'm creating, and if you'd seen any of my posts describing my screen(s) layout, you'd know why).But, Pedro wanted a panel that puts the viewer's perspective as if they were sitting in the pilot's seat. The main PIC panel and Lee's version put your view as if you were sitting in the middle of the cockpit (not that there is anything wrong with that, it

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Guest ilh

Thanks, Steve. However, I don't know that I will really use this setup either. I'm actually perfectly happy with the normal view. I just wanted to play around a bit.But, I would be interested to learn what causes the fatal problems if you discover it. There are a lot of gauges there. Time for a binary search! We should find the suspect (if it is one) in 5 tries.EDIT: I forgot to mention that I prefer your perspective, although I miss the MCP.Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

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Hey Lee,I really like the default panel view too. In fact, I feel a little bit like Dr. Frankenstein sometimes, cutting up a perfectly good panel and moving bits and pieces of it over 3 monitors. But having a full screen external view on a 20" monitor and all of your gauges enlarged and placed on two 14" inch monitors really immerses you into the flight!I really prefer your panel view, and plan to have the MCP, VSI , EHSI and EHSI gauges on a pop up panel when I complete my panelI'm also looking at modifying yours to put the EHSI where the top EICAS gauge is, put the EHSI control panel were the thrust control panel is, and put the VSI where the caution panel is. I think that would be an awesome panel arrangement. Here is a shot I threw together (sorry I swiped your screenshot):http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3cf773a8348310b6.jpgRegards,Steve Dra

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Guest

Hi Steve,WOW, that trully looks incredible. It kind of shows the concept. Lee's view kind of looks like Pauls "Pilot's VIew" while yours looks like the landing view. One thing to keep in mind is that this panel is not supposed to placee the main 767 Panel but just a replacement of the rear and down views to two forward views. So I really don't see the value of having pop up windows in these views but just a way of getting back to the main panel. I have to tell you that I am very impressed. You did that in 4 hours? Your view really resembles a pilot sitting on the Captain's seat except that you eye should be a little higher and perhaps magnified with a REAR_VIEW_ZOOM. On the pic2k2.zip "VFR panel" the pitch on this view is 2.0 or VIEW_REAR_DIR=2.0, 0.0, 0.0. Also, Are you setting up a different window or modifying one of the default views like rear and down?My other question is what are the type of problems with the gauges that would require you to program in C? In any case what you have done is trully unbelievable. You have great talent... Stay in touch! Best reagrds, Pedro

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Hi Lee,Great work! One thought is to set up the view by replacing the FIXED_VIEW_REAR and changing the view direction9that's what Paul did on the 707 panel). The advantage is that it is very clean. Just by pressing the key to look back and locking it you can get the landing view, then by pressing the forward key you are back to the front view again. Download this panel if you don't have it and read his panel.cfg. Maybe you already know this and you want to create a separate window so it's just a suggestion. That view looks great as well. Paul set up 2 views on his panel: a pilot's view (like your) and a landing view (l;ike Steve's). On his panel if you look back you get the pilot's view and if you look down you get the landing view. If you need to do anything else like the FMC or pedestal or whatever then you go back to the main panel. Best Regards, Pedro

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Guest ilh

Yep. I already thought of that.Lee Hetherington (KBOS)

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