Hi,Check out the subject at Hangar Chat.I posted a "version" of my "procedures" in the situation, where the pilots would be incapacitated. Comments ? I'd like to hear comments, and the things _you_ would do in the abovementioned situation.http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...ewmode=threadedcheers,Tero

Assuming nice weather, plenty of fuel, no technical problems, the availability of suitable airports (which in this case is airports where you can do an autoland), and last but not least an aircraft that is capable of autoland (obviously) and ideally one that you have a fair knowledge of. (Most newer Boeings come to mind, and stretching it a bit, a new Airbus.)Then I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, theoretically at least. :-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

Ohhh...man...you're one lucky guy.....What I'd give to get into a full-motion simulator and give it a whirl....Plus, having a dad who's a commercial airline pilot..guess that tends to make things easier. Do you plan on following your dad into Commercial aviation?? Take it easy..Tony P.

I'm nearly sure a serious simmer could do it, especially when using the simulator correctly. Though I wouldn't dare to do any handflying - even if I did have confidence in myself. It's just not worth risking the lives of so many. Only take the necessary risks :)Though it sure would be a flightsimmer's dream eh? Imagine the FA going over the intercom and asking "Is there pilot onboard?" :)cheers!http://www.mydestiny.net/~michael8/genavbanner.gif

An often asked question :-)What most people forget is the problem of communication. Of course, the average person would have some idea of what a hand microphone looks like, but would the average non-pilot know how to operate a heavy jet boom microphone (without knowing where the push-to-talk switch is) or how to tune the comm radios (and what frequency to set them to) or how to adjust volume and select the appropriate radio system on his/her Audio Selector Panel? Even simmers might have problems with this (Especially on later generation aircraft... and especially in the middle of an ocean, out of range of VHF systems).Without comms, the ground can't tell you what to do so, basically, you're on your own.Also, some 767's have a "tone encoder" which looks very much like a hand microphone (with a simple number keypad under the mic area). I don't believe the mic is operational on this device, so the non-pilot would be very confused. In his/her panic, the non-pilot may press the wrong button on one of the comms panels which might make it impossible for the ground to contact the aircraft even by scanning all the known frequencies.And... in the wake of 911... there's now the major problem of ATC thinking that the aircraft has been hijacked after the loss of communications... and alerting the military.PIC non-pilots, of course, should have an advantage over the average person when it comes to 767's... as long as they don't try to apply the brakes by holding onto the trigger switch on their "joysticks" :-) I'd imagine it would be quite easy to judge how a non-pilot would handle a heavy jet... Just invite a non-simmer friend or neighbour over to your place, to fly PIC to the nearest suitable airport ... in cloud ;-)Cheers.Ian.P.S. BTW, I was browsing in a bookstore a few months ago and found a book called "Survivors Guide To Everything" or something like that. For situations like this, the author recommended finding a button labelled "autopilot" and pushing it. If the A/P was already disengaged...and the aircraft was perhaps descending rapidly towards the ground... even if the non-pilot figured out that he had to push the CMD button... it's not going to stop the aircraft crashing into the ground (if the MCP altitude is set incorrectly).

I reckon the chances of someone pulling it off would be extremely slim.There is an ENORMOUS difference between being able to fly a computer sim, and being able to get into the real thing and put it all into practice.The fact of the matter is there never are "ideal" conditions in the real world, there are many factors that will work against you, and many things to consider in a real aircraft which may not be apparent in the sim.There would be absolutely no chance someone could perform a manual landing. There is a small chance that a very experienced and well read PIC'er might be able to set the aircraft up for an autoland, with proper guidance from people on the ground... Provided you can work out how to use the radio!

Contrary to what some say here I think it is possible. With some qualifications. I assume the person did fly some real aircraft before (is at least a private pilot), there would be very little crosswind, no additional in-flight emergencies and good long runway. There is obviously this "X" factor here - namely whether someone would "crack" under such enormous pressure. This would probably be the biggest challenge of all - to keep your cool.A friend of mine and experienced PP spent some time flying full motion 737 simulator and told me it was actually easier than he thought (no, they did not make him fly on a single engine). Michael J.

HPSOV,I'm interested to know what the exact problems would be in the situation of experienced PIC767 flyer trying to setup the plane for an autoland.I _really_ don't think that it would be anymore than _easy_.Pilots are not gods, they push buttons and use turnwheels up at the FLs just like we the simmers would do. We wouldn't have to handfly the plane at all, and I think that the autoland would pose no problem.Tero

Hi!All I have to say is:If you have this situation on an airbus, and you know really much of it, it is really possible to land the aircraft.I could land an A340 in that case, and with that every A320 and so on. Why do I know that so exactly?I was on a A340-200 Full-FlightSim of Lufthansa Flight Training in Frankfort.I did a take-off in Hong Kong (new airport) and a very fine landing there. I also did a landing in Munich, but the instructor set very hard turbs, and so the landing was hard, but no real damage on the aircraft.BUT: I don't think that I'm really be able to land a 767 or other Boeing, because an Airbus is really easy to fly with the Fly-by-wire System. You mustn't trim or anything...Greetz,Andreas

>Provided you can work out how to use the radio!It would already be tuned to a proper frequency. And if it isn't, we can assume the simmer knows how to read a chart. And... err... I'm off to check out the part about radios in the 767 manual. ;-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

I suppose that some of the hard core 767PIC types with zero actual flying experience could probably pull it off given a few assumptions. Assuming that this occurs in one of the planes (767PIC, Airbus, 777, 747, 737) with a detailed sim that simmers are familiar with. I doubt success in some other aircraft such as an MD-80 which the simmer is not familiar with. Assume also that an autoland capability exists in the aircraft and airport they are arriving at. Whether the runway is capable of Cat III is important because if it is not, there may be site factors that can preclude a safe autoland. One story that comes to mind is of a 737-800 captain showing off the autoland to a jumpseater at LaGuardia. On short final the mechanical voice went "sixty.....fifty.....fortythirtytwentyWHAM" Of course the LaGarbage runway sat on piers over the water and this sudden change in height gave it no time to initiate a flare. So there are real life factors that you need to consider that are not apparent from msfs experience alone. Even pilots with thousands of hours make fairly colorful landings during their first times in a new plane. Somebody with zero actual seat of pants experience in a jet aircraft would most likely make a colorful hand flown landing also. But if the cards were stacked in your favor and you could call upon your 767PIC experience and let the autopilot land it, I'd say your chances of success are better than average.

I dont know about a "non pilot" but someone with some flying experience ,or alot of disciplined flightsimming experience could do it ,Pic users in general come to mind. I have worked for Boeing for 16 years now and have had a chance to fly the 757 and 737ng simulators(we sometimes practice engine run emergency procedures in the sim) and had no problem making landings, they even threw in 20 kt croswinds and 1 mile visibility and I did it without a problem and without a copilot, in some ways its actually easier than flying on the computer . Although I am intimatley familiar with both these aircraft and their systems( I work at the boeing customer delivery center and trouble shoot system problems ,only on the 737ng as the 757 has moved to the paine field site now) and also am private pilot working toward my instrument rating. If you have the confidence and dont panic it could be done, now throw me in an "airbus" and I might be in trouble. But someone that has never flown an aircraft or is a serious flightsimmer or has any knowledge of aircraft systems I dont think they would be capable of it.

>or alot of disciplined flightsimming experience could do itI agree. Very important. How disciplined is your simming ?On another note I recall, years ago, going to the SAC base in Merced, CA to debug some software for the Air Force. The base was filled with KC-135 (B707) and B-52 simulators. There was fellow there, not a pilot, who was our software guy on-site (I worked for Singer-Link at that time). He would take advantage of simulators being down between 12am-6am and practiced his landings (nice job, he !). He would make perfect landings in the KC-135 though I, a rookie PP, was miserably unsuccessful at that time (having no chance to practice).Michael J.

"It would already be tuned to a proper frequency."Re radio ops. The 767 is a little more intuitive/user-friendly than other types, but it may still present problems. It would be interesting to know how real 767 pilots leave their radios set up on long overwater sectors.Do they leave "HF" selected on their Audio Selector Panels? i.e. their "HF L" or "R" mic selector button pushed in? Do they leave their HF receiver volume turned up... or rely on Selcal? If overwater, and a non-pilot didn't know how to turn up the volume (there are no buttons marked "VOL" on the 767 as I recall), would he/she be able to figure it out by looking at the overhead and pedestal panels?). Some HF panels have a "SENS" knob.... Would the average person know what this did or how to use it?I guess the ability to communicate would depend on how quickly the drama unfolded. VHF comms have a maximum range of only a few hundred miles (and at cruise speeds, it doesn't take long to cover a few hundred miles... at which point you would have to retune your radios... noting here that there is more than one VHF comm radio. Would a non-pilot know which one to use?).Do the pilots leave their Audio Selector Panels in "INT"... or "VHF"... instead of "HF" on long overwater sectors (or in remote areas). How soon do they tune their VHF radios to their destination airport?Some aircraft have a two position mic switch on the control column (and/or on the Audio Selector Panels). Would the non-pilot know which position to use?Re charts... I was taught the local HF frequencies back in my apprenticeship days, but I must admit, I'd be lost when it came to finding HF frequencies in the Flight Deck manuals for different areas(I don't know if they are listed on charts or not). Another thing to note... the HF frequency you select is dependent on atmospheric conditions (these change throughout the day). You might have to try several frequencies before you got a response).Of course, there are always AOM's on board... so it shouldn't take too long to read through the relevent chapter on Comms ;-)If you can't figure out how to tune and use the radios, then you have the problem of setting up the aircraft for autoland by yourself. Last time I looked, our 767's had no "Nav Rad" page and no ILS frequencies on the lightshield NAV panel ;-) Cheers.Ian.

"...and I think that the autoland would pose no problem."As mentioned below, Tero... How do you tune the three ILS receivers on your average real 767?http://www.ozemail.com.au/~iriddell/767/767CDU.gifCheers.Ian.