"Another option for comms would be to use the FMC ACARS to send a company message regarding your situation,..."Hi, Tabs...A possibility, but I think it would be a lot harder to use ACARS than a normal radio:1. It's relatively easy to make weather requests, but, as I recall, to send text to someone, you need to know their "address". This is in the form of an alpha-numeric code.2. ACARS is also dependent on radio range. Not many 767 airlines have their ACARS plugged into a Satcom system (like Air Canada does), and are limited to VHF line-of-sight range (the ACARS system normally uses the Center VHF Comms transmitter-receiever.3. Our ACARS seems to have more pages than our FMC! I'm not sure how intuitive the menu is to someone who hasn't used one before.Don't be discouraged... I'm pretty sure that by the end of this message thread, PIC users, at least, will have some idea of how to use the radios :-)Cheers.Ian.

Ian,I'm not sure I understand your question ? Why did you put a pic of CDU in there ?Well,regarding the autoland, if I have the right freq and crs in Nav1, am I not doing it right then ? Of course I can switch it into Auto and select the arrival runway (ILS) in FMC. Or manually tune the FMC in the nav/rad page ...Or are you referring to the fact that all three autopilot channels must be activated to get LAND3 (LAND2 with 2 APs is sufficient though)above 1500 AGL ?Tero

"if I have the right freq and crs in Nav1, am I not doing it right then ? "Which control panel do you mean by "Nav1", Tero? The control panel on the lightshield is simply the Captain's "VOR-DME" control panel on the real 767 (at least on the ones I've worked on). You can't select ILS frequencies... If you try to dial up an ILS frequency by rotating the frequency selector knob, the display skips all the ILS frequencies.I'm sure it's the same on all 767-300's, but then again, I haven't seen all 767's ;-) (Actually, I'm hoping someone will find a photograph of a real 767 VOR-DME control panel tuned to an ILS frequency.... just to prove that there is no such thing as normal on a 767 :-)).Cheers.Ian.P.S. I'll let the experts answer the question of how to tune the real ILS ;-)P.P.S I posted a pic of our CDU to show you that there was no NAV RAD key.

Ian,If the captains VOR-DME display (which I was referring to) actually skips all the ILS freqs in the real-life, then PIC767 has a serious flaw, wouldn't you agree ??I'm not gonna argue with you about how the real plane works in this regard, as I remember you are a mechanic who knows these things. Although, this information makes some interesting reading.I would imagine, that if there is no NAV/RAD page that the ILS freq. could be chosen in the DEP/ARR page and by selecting the corresponding RWY ILS and then having the lightshield tuner in "AUTO"-mode. Other than that, I don't really know... Is there a separate ILS tuning unit in the pedestal.All in all, I think that the success of bringing a 767 down to a succesful autoland wouldn't fail due to this. There are AOMs onboard and the radio is there to link you to those who know what to do :).Terop.s. I didn't realize first that the pic had no nav/rad page.. I thought that it was standard equipment FMC in PIC767.

>Ian, >>If the captains VOR-DME display (which I was referring to) >actually skips all the ILS freqs in the real-life, then >PIC767 has a serious flaw, wouldn't you agree ?? I can't vouch for AA (on which the PIC is based), Tero... In fact I have been known to get it wrong a few times on my own airline ;-) This may be one such case. My initial 767 training was many, many years ago... perhaps even before our first 767 arrived. Errors in training notes are also possible... and some system explanations don't always give you a proper picture. This is why I come to sites like this to refresh my memory and get to get a global perspective (through pilot input and with discussion of other airline ops). Mistakes, despite being embarrassing (grin), are better made here than on the real aircraft.According to my airline's training notes, the FMC doesn't autotune the ILS receivers, so that leaves FMC-tuning out of the picture... at least on our airline (The ILS receiver does have two data ports... one for manual tuning and one for autotuning, but the autotuning port is not used. Whether ILS receiver autotuning is optional or whether the ILS receiver can be used on other type aircraft is something I'll have to look into. Anyway, on our 767's, ILS tuning is done, manually, via a dedicated ILS control panel on the center console.http://www.ozemail.com.au/~iriddell/767/ILSControlPanel.jpgI believe most, if not all, airlines' 767-200's/-300's have one of these.From an "earthbound" engineers perspective I see that when I try to tune an ILS frequency (at the gate) using the panel on the glareshield, I can't. However, after searching the web today, I did find a picture of a Qantas aircraft which does appear to have an ILS frequency in the glareshield panel window (in flight).... so it looks like I'll have to go back to my training notes to figure this one out! I seem to recall that a manual tuning signal goes from the pedestal control panel to the glareshield panel for DME tuning purposes, but whether this affects the frequency display in the window, I don't know (Anyway, I go back to work tomorrow, so I'll check this out). Incidentally, I believe one of the PIC team mentioned previously that some shortcuts had to be made in relation to tuning because FS2002 only allows for a limited number of nav receivers. I don't know if this was one of them. By the way, our aircraft have 2 VOR and 3 ILS receivers (probably well beyond the capability of FS2002). In light of this, I wouldn't even suggest that this was a serious flaw... but more a compromise). >p.s. I didn't realize first that the pic had no nav/rad >page.. I thought that it was standard equipment FMC in >PIC767.As I said, I can't vouch for other airlines ;-) There may be 767's out there with this feature.Anyway, I'll let you know if I find an proper answer to this one.Curiouser and curiouser :-)Cheers.Ian.

Was reading an Airliner World mag a few months ago, and a 767 captain says anyone who flies Pipers or Cessnas would most likely be right at home with the 767's handling.Greg

It's probably true in terms of control forces and inputs (well, if they put it in the mag it ought to be some truth in it :-)). I really can't say. :-)But I think it would most likely be a disaster to put a GA pilot who is not familiar with jets in the cockpit. I imagine that more than a few Cessna pilots don't have a clue at which speeds to use when landing a (say) 767 or when to flare, how to work the autopilot etc. Putting in the cockpit someone who has an idea of how to set the plane up for an autoland would probably be a lot safer.Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

>the display skips all the ILS frequencies. Can you explain that further? Does it skip the frequency when it has identified an ILS frequency or does it skip the whole band? (Whatever that is, 108.XX-111.XX, but inbetween there are a lot of VOR frequencies too. :-hmmm)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

Whoa, you opened up a can of worms here. Or something like that. :-)Yesterday, I plunged into the Comms section of the 767 AOM, so now I'm fairly familiar with what you're talking about. :-) Before that I didn't have much of a clue about all the switches and controls.I'm now trying to think as an "average person" (which I practically was when it comes to radio controls until yesterday ;-)), and to answer your questions; I wouldn't be able to adjust the volume, at least not right away, since as you said the volume knobs are not very well labeled at all. I would have no idea what the "SENS" knob meant.I (the regular me) doesn't even know which VHF radio to use - does it matter? I thought you could use any VHF radio with a frequency tuned, receiver selected and volume up, and mic keyed. Is there anything more to it?Back again thinking as an "average person", and I wouldn't know which position to use on the yoke mic switch, but the switch on the audio panel is usually more straightforward (but audio panels come in many different ways - something I learned during my manual digging last night :-)).Regarding frequencies and charts, speaking as myself again, the frequencies are clearly listed on the charts I have. There is also of course the 121.5 emergency frequency and 123.45 air-to-air frequency (for remote areas). But I still believe that, unless it's gone a long time since the pilots passed out, the right frequency would be tuned.Does F/As know how to use the radios? Also, many 767s have satellite phones for use by the pax, but to be honest I don't know how these work. :-)Lastly, as an "average" but rational person, if I couldn't find another solution, I would look in the AOM. It's easy to figure out how to work the radios. ;-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

Well, being a firm believer in finding out things, I did a search at google.com on "passenger lands plane" and there were numerous articles with succesful landings. All but one involved small prop planes, and the one was a DC-10. Of course the co-pilot landed the DC-10.My point? If different people with flying experience ranging from none(sim included) to some, can walk away from their landings with small aircraft that have limited automation, I belive that a simmer with working comms, a cool mind, enough fuel, a plane that can autoland and Lady Luck sitting next to him/her should be able to walk away from their landing as well. I guess the key words are "able to walk away" as opposed to "making a greaser". :)Does anyone know what, if any, the procedures are for ATC in the "passenger flying"-situation? Or for the cabin crew?Actually, when I think about it, I remember a tv show where they grabbed some guy from the street, put him in a small prop along with an instructor. The instructor took off, gave the controls to the "civilian" and talked him in towards landing. At the last second he had to take over the controls and do a go around, due to an early flare if I remember correctly. Afterwards the instructor said that the plane would probably have sustained damage, but that they would have survived. Obviously a rather different scenario than a jet airliner, but food for thought...

Ian its been 2 years since I have worked a 757/767 , afraid Im stuck with the 737 NG for now . But from what I can remember The ability to tune an ILS freq and course on the glareshield nav reciever was dependent on the position of the EFIS mode switch. If it was in plan or map mode, I believe it was under fmc control and you could not select manual tuning mode and the freq window would display auto and the course would display dashes. If it was switched to vor or ILS mode the manual selection mode was available and I could select a nav freq and course. And I cant remember if this was because I had a valid ILS signal where I was located or not. Like I said its been years and the 737NG has polluted my brain ,so dont take this as fact ,but its the way I remember it.

I think it would be best to have both of them, the GA pilot actually flying the plane, with the 'PIC fetishist' setting up the FMC, autopilot etc. Then I think we'd have a fair chance of coming out of it unharmed.Cheers,Gosta.

Don't forget to tell us about your experience in the sim afterwards...Have fun!Cheers,Gosta.

I also think that would be a good combination, but with only one person available I would choose the one with knowledge of the autopilot and FMS right away. But what do I know, I'm just a PC pilot? ;-)Martin767 fetishistIt's a lot like life and that's what's appealing

Well, if all systems are working I'd probably vote for the (very) competent PC pilot, but on the other hand, although I don't like the idea of a Cessna pilot flying a 767 as if it was a single prop, I also don't like the idea of the PC pilot manually landing it the same way we do in FS - somehow I think it would be a bit more complicated in the real thing. But then, I'm just a PC pilot as well :).Cheers,Gosta.