"FSInn is also done for free, in spare time, and is beingdeveloped a heck of a lot faster, and in a far more open andfriendly manner than SB3 IMO."Far more open??? Friendly manner then SB3. Where do you get off on that one? Ask a real question in the SB3 forum, you'll get a good answer fast. Ask a dumb question you'll get beat on by the other forum users.BTW SB3 is also being done in some ones spare time, and for free. And faster?? How would you know, for all we know FSInn may have been in the works for years, it wasn't until mid-summer anything was ever said about it, so they would not have to put up with some of the crap that Joel does in the SB3 forum, this is the same reason that ASRC was in the works for well over a year before it was announced, then spend 10 months in beta.If you knew anything about the development behind SB3 you would know it has not been in the works for 28 months. There was talk with in a group of developers for the last 28 months that Joel was not a part of until just before he started creating code. Joel has only been working on it for about 18 months, with a working test version being used by a group of about 50 since late May."Again I think when you take on a software title that a lot ofpeople use, you have a responsibility to try and get it donein a reasonable time, free or not." What is a reasonable time? The biggest hold up with SB3 was the fact that Microsoft kicked out a new version of FS, with a new weather interface, and multi-player system. So really Joel is building 2 completely new versions of SB to support both FS2002 and FS9.So really if you look at it, SB3 is taking no longer then any other software has, only difference is we have all known about it since the first line of code was written. So that makes it seem like it

Well, the biggest advantage of SB3 over FSInn then is going to be in how other pilots aircraft are displayed. If FSInn just uses the AI aircraft you have....that sucks. I for one do not have any third party AI planes installed because I always fly online and never needed them. I have been using those crappy CSL planes now. So with FSInn, I guess other pilots will be dispalayed using the default FS9 AI aircraft..yuck. Now when SB3 is released, this will ship with the VIP3 model set. This set includes almost every airline in the world and their associated various aicraft. This is by far much more realistic IMO. Here is a list of what VIP3 will have:http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jill.atkinson...ine%20List.html(copy/paste in your browser) for some reason, cannot get the hot link to work.As you can see, this will present a MUCH more realistic enviroment. Now with this, you can still plug in a higher quality AI set of say United airlines if you wanted to and still keep the rest of the VIP3 model set as is...basically just replacing what airline you want when you want and still keeping the hundereds of other liveries/models in there for the airlines you don't want to replace.

>WHAT??? I think you missed the VATSIM announcement on the>front page of the vatsim.net website in September that>officially announced the coming of FSInn. SB3 was not>mentioned at all.> No - I saw that just like everyone else- but the big difference is that SB3 has been testing for some months actually on the VATSIM network rather than on a seperate network- operating under exactly the conditions that it will have to use when fully released.I'm convinced that when both SB3 and FSInn are available - SB3 will prove superior in every way- not just on the CSL issue .Dave

Actually I think that the CSL vs FS AI really breaks down to to the user. I like you prefer the Common Shapes Library approach. However some users love their collection of AI, and will be thrilled to be able to use it with multiplayer.As for reasonable time. First I got the 28 months off of Joels site, the day he said he was starting on it in the news archives. Anyways sure it takes time to do things, but FS2004 is 1/2 done it's life, are we going to wait for FS2006 then?For VATSIM veterans this isn't a huge issue, nor is it for relative newcomers like me (2 years). But, for someone new to it all, many are just turned off because of the current software setup. Even on my own system before I would get a crash to desktop whenever I tried to connect to VATSIM. I found out eventually that using the external SBhost prevented the CTD's for me. But a new user may never figure that out.So perhaps it's not the SB3 developers fault, but the VATSIM organization as a whole? IVAO seemed to get it's own client out in a decent amount of time.As I said, this current situation is making it hard for new users to join, and is even frustrating long time users to the point they have quit flying on VATSIM. Something needs to be done. If this cycle repeats for every new flightsim, then are we only going to be able to fly on VATSIM 6 months every 2 years?I'm not trying to start a flame war or troll thread, I'm just saying that like it or not, the current software setup is a significant problem for many users.

Actually FSInn has been on Vatsim also.The one major difference between the two is the connection speed. With FSinn you will be able to connect to others with 40 Hz, which will allow close formation flying without any lag, where as SB3 only goes as high as 5 Hz.Exactly how will SB3 be superior? They do pretty much the same thing. The CSL issue is really not as big an issue as you make it out be. With SB3 you download a CSL package that includes a big amount of planes, you can do the same for FSInn. You can download all the planes you are ever going to need, and they are AIA, T.U. and FSPainter models which imo are the best.

>The one major difference between the two is the connection>speed. With FSinn you will be able to connect to others with>40 Hz, which will allow close formation flying without any>lag, where as SB3 only goes as high as 5 Hz.Sorry, this is nonsense. You have no idea about what you

Well if you have looked in the FSInn settings menu you will in fact see the unit used for peer to peer mode is Hz! Hertz is define as " unit of frequency equal to one cycle per second", which corresponds to what you say about data packages being recieved at 5 per second...so you tell me if it is wrong! Having talked with Benjamin a lot, I would think that I do know a little about how it is supposed to work...so don't assume so much.FSInn users will not see SB3 users jumping around since Benjamin did implement a smoothing algorythm into the program. He has tested this on the Vatsim servers with good results.

Ok, why don't you guys just try out FSInn?? I started up FSInn on their test server a few weeks ago... No CSL libraries on my PC.. Started out on the ramp on Bora Bora Island, FP. Parked next to me was a PC-12 and a C130. I was a MD500. I asked the C130 guy to tell me what kind of plane I was flying and he said MD500. He asked the same question and I said C130.I'm not claiming to know everything, but I believe FSInn adds several lines of code to the main .cfg file in all the aircraft in your aircraft folder. FsInn then searches for the closest match when in the vicinity of another player.I admit the framerates could drop dramatically if you had several high quality aircraft around you, but you still have an option to subsitute for a lower quality model. And that to me is much better than having all these CSL planes filling up your aircraft folder... Brandon RuizEvents Coordinator/VA LiasonvDenver ARTCCwww.denartcc.orgSkiAir Virtual Airlines"Serving the ski areas of the Rockies"www.pookiedom.com/skiair

>me is much better than having all these CSL planes filling up>your aircraft folder...The SB3 VIP Folder which contains literally hundreds of aircraft/color schemes is only 70MB in total when installed and is visible as one folder in your FS/9 Aircraft folder.Dave

To dispute that the SB3 CSL is better than the FSInn approach is plain stupid.Some users will prefer the CSL approach, others the AI approach, one is no better than the other except to the individual user.

Well at least people are talking about this stuff now. I was trying to find a way that I can vent some frustration at the differences in the features that SB3 was offering vs. FSInn. I should have just said that it would be really neat if SB3 were not only smooth, but accurate too. I've looked at the multiplayer movies from SB3, and there really is no comparison to the peer-to-peer that is offered by FSInn. One question I have is that of bandwidth responsibility of the server. Does peer-to-peer increase the responsibility or decrease it? I have no problem being a cable modem user using my bandwidth for my connections, if 40 planes want to get within 10 miles of me, so be it, no skin off my nose. To be fair, even FSInn has knocked down the number of planes that are allowed to be seen within a certain radius, much like we have now in SB2.3.x. The slider bar code to adjust this will remain, but it won't be functional or graphically included in the program. Sooooooooo, I'm glad everyone is talking (yelling, whatever) about this. Doesn't talking about it raise your excitment level? :) Maybe soon we won't just be talking.

I look forward to any alternative to not running 8 programs at once. At least we'll get 7 months use of it before FS2006 is out lol.

The 4+FS9 program problem we have now should not be a problem when FS2006 comes out. We have this problem now because the people who built SB2 were no longer available or had the time too update the software for FS2002 and now FS2004, patch programs came out as a band-ad fix to keep us going. So once SB3 does come out, we need to forward many thanks to Joel for building this so he will stick around and support us with proper updates, once newer version of FS come out.As for how good the other planes look in SB3. The videos on the website are from the Vatsim Conf in the summer of 2003, before the VIP3 model set was installed. Now that the VIP3 plug in is done the multi-player aircraft look just as good as P2P play.

Mikkel,I was referring to the misleading term of "hz" here. "Frames per Second" would be the better value to talk about. And your value "5" is wrong anyway as far as SB3 is concerned. SB3 displays MP traffic with a selectable framerate of up to 20fps.>FSInn users will not see SB3 users jumping around since Benjamin did implement a smoothing algorythm into the program.Good to hear! I stand corrected ... :)Yours,Martin Georg/EDDFVACC-SAG PR & Events Coordinator *** mailto:[email protected]http://vatsim.pilotmedia.fi/statusindicato...r=SAG01&a=a.jpg

I was just using the terminology used in the program. Perhaps I should have said that FSInn is capable of updating the aircraft positions, when in peer to peer mode, 40 times per second.I was not aware that SB3 can update 20 times a second. Last I talked to Benjamin he said 5. Both are actually talking and helping out each other, which is a big plus for us, so that each program is "compatible".