I've never flown an aircraft and have never been anywhere near a cockpit. In that context, I'm sure Bill Lyons won't mind me mentioning this story. After having bought his beautiful Tiger Moth I wrote back to him to tell him that I thought the flight model was "too easy" to fly and a little docile compared to what I was used to. He assured me the Tiger's flight model was far more realistic than the aircraft I had been flying in FS2002 up until that point. As he pointed out, if real aircraft behaved like the one I had been flying up until then, aircraft would be falling out of the sky left right and centre, and there would be aircraft accidents and fatalities all over the place. Of course Bill was quite right, I simply had no basis for which to judge how realistic the flight modelling in the simulator actually was, let alone the flight characteristics of a particular aircraft. But of course that doesn't stop me from tuning a particular FS aircraft to my own personal tastses for my own personal use. Even if it isn't realistic, I am usually more concerned about having fun first up and worrying about the "numbers" second up.Having now bought quite a few payware aircraft whose flight models have all been done by the top handful of elite FS2002 flight dynamics modellers, I have come to the conclusion that a realistic flight model is actually much more stable and underwhelming, even less exciting than the "arcade" type flight models that many FS aircraft exhibit. That has been the characteristic of every top-notch payware aircraft I have bought. And these have all been flight modelled by the very elite of the guru elite. More boring then? Perhaps yes, I would even confess this is the case. I have to admit I often find the closer to the "numbers" a flight model is puported as being, the less hands on it needs to be and the aircraft doesn't need constant coaxing the way some other aircraft do. And I like hands on flying.Whenever I have got into discussions with my real pilot friend about the challenges and difficulties of flying these simulated aircraft, he tends to express surprise. As these conversations usually end: "But just how hard do you really think a real Cessna is to fly". The real world answer is: "Not very hard at all". Certainly alot easier than these arcade simulations would have us believe.

"Bernt Stolle, a former Dash 7 Captain, is also on the beta team with 5 other real world pilots."Bernt Stolle, one among the very few real world airliner pilots that I know, who is really useful when it comes to flight modelling. Because he does it seriously, with passion, almost as if it was his own profession...Give him my regards, he may remember me :-)Sramatis

Hello Tim!"Long time no speak" :-)"The B747 debate I have given up on. Despite my comments in the past about how WELL that aircraft handles (roll on a dime), few listen. Many would rather believe that because it is huge, surely it handles like a beast!"Yes, I know what you mean. Even in this thread you will still find references to the B747 when an author wants to give an example of a heavy-handling, slow-response airliner...I hope you are doing fine at your new job, I will email you to find out how you're doing!Stamatis

Bazz,Try the same flight in the sim aircraft with a fair crosswind and some rain and clouds down to minimums. Then try the same thing in the real thing. Believe me the pucker factor cannot be so easily dispensed with. It is very easy to fall behind the aircraft IRL as opposed to a sim. Same thing when landing etc. So what if you hit the deck with +- 100FPM. So it bounces a bit. IRL you will be a smoking pile :-)Cheers,Chris Porter:-outtaPerthWestern Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/images/FSD_beta_tester.jpg[h3] FSD Aircraft "Around the world" flight.Now at EDDF (Frankfurt/Main) Germany[/h3]Intel Pentium IV 2.26GHz(533)512K L2 Cache NorthwoodIntel D850EMV2-LAN P4 (533MHz FSB)Kingston/Samsung 256MB PC-800 RAMBUS, x 2 (512Mb)MSI-8872 GeForce4 Titanium 4600 128MB DDRPioneer 16x DVD , 40x CD-ROM Tray Load ATA 66Hyundai -ImageQuest P910+, 19" Multi-Scan Digital MonitorIBM Deskstar 60GXP, 60GB HDD IDEAOpen QF50 Midi ATX Case with 300W P4 ATX Power SupplyHercules Game Theater XP, 6.1 speakers Dolby

>Whenever I have got into discussions with my real pilot >friend about the challenges and difficulties of flying these >simulated aircraft, he tends to express surprise. As these >conversations usually end: "But just how hard do you really >think a real Cessna is to fly". The real world answer is: >"Not very hard at all". Certainly alot easier than these >arcade simulations would have us believe. You really have over simplified it.....A Cessna 172 or Piper Archer isn't all that hard to fly. But it does take quite a bit of practice to perform smooth climbouts and descents without porpousing which may not even be that noticeable to the "un-trained" in a sim. In real life, your body as well as the passengers will feel these deviations in the stomach! :) You'll also find that it takes a few hundred landings to get comfortable with the look of the required "attitude" and proper bleeding off of speed to "hit" the first part of the runway, and cross winds will effect all that. Other factors to take into account, is pattern flying around the airport when there are three or four other planes in the same pattern, and you're trying to keep track of them as well as making your own radio calls, etc. It's a bit more tense when the pause key isn't available..And this is for the simpler planes. Once past that, the thought and reaction process has to be faster for high performace aircraft. You'll start to feel the differences in wing loading, different reactions to controls, climb rates, dealing with ATC while keeping on glide slope, remembering to lower the gear, etc, etc, etc!!! L.Adamson

>Regarding little a) above, suffice to say that I have had >two pilots of the same type testflying an airfile in my >basement sim,Stamatis, please don't get yourself arrested. :)Sidney Schwartz [KPDX]

"Hehe... It is real funny how this Law made a bigger impression on everyone else but... the Greeks themselves :-)Stamatis

Interesting thread and I can only speak for myself, but we have an active 747 Captain on our design team and he vettes all of the FDE characteristics and procedures for the group, within the limits of FS2002, of course.Ed Green, [email protected]

>Bazz, >>Try the same flight in the sim aircraft with a fair >crosswind and some rain and clouds down to minimums. Then >try the same thing in the real thing. Believe me the pucker >factor cannot be so easily dispensed with. It is very easy >to fall behind the aircraft IRL as opposed to a sim. Same >thing when landing etc. So what if you hit the deck with +- >100FPM. So it bounces a bit. IRL you will be a smoking pile Chris I think you may be confusing me with somebody else in this thread - I have been the one questioning (not criticising) the apparent ease that I find flying Fsim. What you have said is what I have been trying to imply -- surely real life flying ISN'T this easy. Yes - I do porpoise and make poor landings in the Sim - No, I can't consistently do all kinds of turns and approaches in all sorts of weather (although I have fun trying!) :) -- BUT the Sim does not in any way tell me that I have been a bad boy!! I do achieve a landing - can you imagine a 737 landing IRL in the dirt alongside the main runway at the Brisbane International with no repercussions or effect!!! So , if I wasn't such a questioning B******, I would think that I was flying a complex aircraft correctly and think that I could fly the real thing in real life.Once again - I repeat -- the Sim models are surely too easy (or maybe I should say too FORGIVING!) :) But - let us not forget that my original posting and question was asking how many qualified airline pilots we have in this forum to make judgement on the flight characteristics of complex aircraft (with a little sarcasm thrown in , I have to admit.) :)Barry

>But - let us not forget that my original posting and >question was asking how many qualified airline pilots we >have in this forum to make judgement on the flight >characteristics of complex aircraft (with a little sarcasm >thrown in , I have to admit.) :) Barry,I am a pilot but definitely not qualified to judge 767's or ERJ-145's flight modelling. But if a few independent pilots that ARE rated on these aircraft and fly them daily tell me that flight model is in fact very close - I have little choice but to believe them. As to your other point - the proper simulation of the "consequences" of poor landing or other mishap would be quite difficult and would involve another layer of "crash simulator" - in itself a very challenging task. Even big multi-million $ simulators do not provide such fidelity. They tell you whether the landing was survivable and perhaps give you some G-forces indicator so you could judge on your own how well or poorly you did. I don't know about you but I have no problem judging my own landings and have a fairly good idea whether it was up to the "airlines" standards. Michael J.

I don't drive, but that doesn't mean I dunno if a car is over or underpowered, or how it handles. Now, if a plane is overpowered in real life, but in FS the plane is underpowered, something's not right, I don't need to be a pilot to know that. :)Cheers,http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/User_files/3d7145131ac176a9.jpgAA RULES!!! :)Download my semi-photoreal AA 757!:http://ftp.avsim.com/library/sendfile.php?DownloadID=16882Aerolineas Argentinas A330-200 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR.../posky332ar.zipChrome AA 767 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR...osky767aaV1.zipDominicana de Aviacion 727-53C NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyRepaints/dom722.zip______________________________"Whenever you find yourself in the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

Daniel,Performance issues like the one you quote in your example above, can be judged by anyone in possession of Performace Charts and Tables.But Handling issues, like how fast will an aircraft respond to a given flight control deflection (roll rates, pitch rates, inertia etc.) cannot be judged by someone who has no experience on the type or at least a similar type.Stamatis

Thank you, Stamatis, exactly my point. That's why our guy is on the team.Ed Green, [email protected]