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Hi Etienne, I dont know either, but I told them I would be interested even though I didnt live in any of the cities they listed. I live in Des Moines, which I would be interested in going to Chicago, St. Louis or Kansas City. I just want to be able to give them my input.Craig

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I think it would have been nice to talk to people in other countries. I have a few words for them about the empty wasteland of Pearson, and the fact that PEI is under water.

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Etienne,Essentially, they said that as long as you're an enthusiast and you're willing to pay your own way to get to one of those locations, you might be chosen.Peter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums Moderator[table border=2 cellpadding=0 cellspacing=1][tr][td][table border=0 cellpadding=8 cellspacing=0][tr][td bgcolor=#540000]http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/logo75t.gif[/td][td align="center" bgcolor=#FFFFF6]Bush Flying Unlimited"At home in the wild"Looking for adventure? Come join us! * [link:bfu.avsim.net|Web Site] * [link:www.cafepress.com/bfu,bfu2,bfu3,bfu4|BFU Store] * [link:bfu.avsim.net/join.htm]Join!][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table

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That's right!Pearson really lacks, well everything. How come us Canucks keep getting the shaft when it comes to this sim anyways? For crying out loud Pottageville, Ontario (it's about 15 nm north of Pearson)has more detail to it than they gave Pearson; and it's a 2,000ft strip! I hope some lucky resident of the Great White North can get on this MS thing and voice a word or two for us.And that flickering ramp texture thing, they shoulda caught that in the beta....CF-AOA

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That's how I read it too. Sadly (for the rest of the world) that will leave out most of the world in the survey.I can understand why MS decided on this though. Those are probably areas where members of the FS development team live, flying them all over the world would be prohibitively expensive.

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Sound promising, but MS really seems to forget that the world consists of much more than the US ...But as we are all one FS comunity our American fellows might discuss problems an suggestions which concern all simmers!Toby

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You all feel about this like I feel about Wilco and other payware scenery companies modeling one or two American airports out of 5 that are released with a package. I would really like to see everyone be happy, but I think its too big of a task honestly....or at least for a sim that has a turnaround of 2 years for each new release. I dont think its possible, or practical for MS to model the entire world with any type of accuracy everyone will be happy with.Craig

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Don't get in a fizz guys. I live in the area and I'm not even going to apply. I live in a modest, 3-bedroom house, in a suburban neighborhood. Bill Gates, and the majority of Microsoft's management, live in mega-million mansions. They own airplanes, yachts, and ride around in limos. I drive to work in a $9600 Chevy. Yet they want me to give up my time, for nothing, and even pay for my own transportation fees to get there. Just so Microsoft can make another billion off of FS200x and Bill Gates can add another wing to his mansion. Sorry, but when Microsoft says "Bend over and smile, we got something for you" I say "No thanks" and walk away.Mike Stone

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Hi Mike,You got it right on the spot there !!!I agree with you 100% ! :-)I sure got both money and time to go there myself, but why should I ? And beleive me, the person who goes to that meeting won

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Hi Mike,I think your view on Microsoft Corporate and the Microsoft Flight Simulator Team might be a bit confused, skewed and certainly in error.I know many of the folks on the MS Flight Sim team and I can tell you for certain that they dont drive around in limos or live in mega-million dollar mansions. They are regular Joes that get paid fairly for their efforts but just happen to be working on something they love to do. Gee, a lot like what you, I and many other people embrace with this hobby. But they get paid for it. As for me, I would bet many think the same of me as well.You wanna know what I drive Mike? a 1992 Ford work van.Value of around 1200.00 bucks. Geez, I would just like to get the bathroom finished off let alone add a "new wing" on.But your perception of the MSFS team? Way off. And a billion dollars off of FS? I wish that were true. Than I would have that yacht and the new wing...Of course, I would probably still drive my old van around :-) Its a guy thing.... :-)Regards,Jim Rhoads

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Whoa there Jim, you better read my post again. I never mentioned or even implied any member of the MSFS team. As with any company, Microsoft has thousands of grunts in the trenches, just trying to make a living. What I said exactly was, "Bill Gates, and the majority of Microsoft's management". If you think those boys live on petty wages you better visit Bill's mansion. I have (the outside anyway). These are the people that reap the insane profits that Microsoft rakes in, and one of the reasons that they make those insane profits is that they never pass up an opportunity to stick it to the little guy. Bottom line, they want us to give up our time, at our expense to enhance their profits. I recently participated in a marketing research effort by a music publishing company. Over 100 people took part. They came to us (in a local motel) and it was held in the evening so we didn't have to miss work. They served drinks and refreshments and they payed every one of us $20 an hour for our time. Why did they do all this? Because they realized that what we were doing was for THEIR benefit.Mike Stone

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> Bottom line, >they want us to give up our time, at our expense to enhance >their profits. The bottom line is....................... you're jealous and it shows. You've drawn a distinct line between "grunts" and "management", when infact many "grunts" become management if they think more than a grunt mentality.At least Microsoft DOES produce REAL profits & jobs, which is a lot more than numerous other high profile companies did in the last few years.L.Adamson ------- still thinking how to get a real Citation X!!

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I am not sure I agree with this either...."they never pass up an opportunity to stick it to the little guy"Since we are talking about msflight simulator-We have a sim for $40-60$ which outperforms many of the others that cost much more (Elite for instance or any of the "serious" ifr trainers-which I have owned and don't use because I find MS generally better).It has included Jeppeson worldwide data-which I pay over a hundred bucks a year to have in my real world flight planner-and for only the US data at that.It has instruction manuals included by some of the biggies in the aviation field-which if bought seperately in book form would cost as much as the entire sim.Many other things-like MS paying for a Jepp weather server to deliver timely weather downloads....I am trying to figure out with MSFS how the little guy is "getting sticked"? It seems down right a bargain, and has brought an experience usually untouchable to many right into the living room-to many of the people who can not afford or are in a medical sense unable to do the real thing.Frankly-since September 11, I am surprised Microsoft has chosen to go through with future versions of MS. It probably would have been easier from a business standpoint to end it there-the risk of liability and negative publicity in the future would certainly warrant that from a bean counters perspective.You can debate of course Microsoft's entire business practices to no end-and that may be a valid issue. When talking about flight sim - I frankly don't see that much of that applies here-the little guy is getting a downright bargain.Therefore, I for one will be glad to show up to a meeting and contribute ideas!http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

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Me too, Geof. I was just thinking that we should be happy that they are even interested in hearing our ideas. Thats the first that Ive ever heard of such a thing. I would be happy to travel on my own dime (Im hoping that I get invited to a Chicago meeting, so I can have an excuse to fly into Meigs :)) and give my opinion on whatever they want to hear.Craig

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Agree. From RW experience, you are what you are. Walk like a duck, talk like a duck, and some day they will treat you like a duck.Likewise, act like a asjkf and you will be treated like a aafhajkl and be a asltj forever.Guys, MS is a in the business of making money. That is all any company wants to do. So, why should they pay anyone $20 a hour and all of the other perks when "They Don't Need To"? The room will be full w/o paying a cent. They probably will "invest" with coffee and soft drinks. If the group was all of age, they probably would buy some beer as a discussion lubricant. Even this can be calculated as a good return on investment after you have them in the room. People are nicer and more friendly over drinks and snacks.Money is the name of the game --- Not FS2004. Nothing wrong with it either. The charity department handles the charity investments.From my point of view, I think I would be more interested in the expections of the average user (who 90% of the customers are ) then the 10% power users we see here. This group is not where MS makes it money on FS.How to get an invite for sure, send two requests, one as a "power" user and one as a "poor" guy who will have to take the bus to get to the meeting.Bob

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I'm jealous???? Wow.Why do conversations here always have to degrade to personal attacks. What did I say to draw comments about my character, just because it differs from yours. See ya all....

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Just for you Mike,In the RW I would call you and ask you if we could have dinner together before the meeting and I would pick you up at your home. On the way home from the meeting we would stop and have a couple of drinks to finish out our discussion on what we should be thinking about in FS2004. I would hope that you would understand "business" and not tell the world of the "perk" you got. Business is business. Your name and the cost would appear in my personal expense book, not in the conference expenses.Yes, special concession and rules are made for special people. It is part of business.Bob

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>I'm jealous???? Wow. >>Why do conversations here always have to degrade to personal >attacks. What did I say to draw comments about my >character, just because it differs from yours. >Perhaps I was defending "your" personal attack against Bill Gates and the Microsoft management................ which is exactly where your comments were heading. I freely admit that I'm jealous because I do not "yet" have my own executive jet. But I don't sit around blaming Microsoft or any other corporation that generates "REAL" profits............. just because they have theirs! This is where our character differs..L.Adamson

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Now I understand why you defend Bill Gates. You're both greedy. You are right, our character does differ.Mike Stone

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Before this thread gets locked I am trying to understand the logic of where this has gone....a) Given- Microsoft is a big rich company and many of its top executives including Bill Gates have mansions, airplanes, and yachts.b)Microsoft makes MS2002-one of the best software values and one of the best, if not the best flight sims, at a price of a normal computer game c)Microsoft intead of coming out with another version of FS and maximizing more profits for themselves and their stockholders, which should be their goal as a business instead:asks for our input and suggestions for improvements for the next version. This will incur costs on Micorsoft's end both in the multiple meetings, staffing, and future implementation of features. This money could be better spent in getting more yachts, and airplane's for the executives. Listening to the customer of course should not be part of a huge, idealess organization like Microsoft.d) I drive an old car and live in a modest houseConclusion?!-Because they are asking us to freely contribute our ideas for the next version , Microsoft is greedy and self serving. The fact that soliciting our ideas will incur extra costs on Microsoft's end both in logistics and implementation is no factor. If they paid my travel expenses and money for my giving my expertise this would not be greedy on my part but fair-to ask for my opinions for free is greed on their parts.I think this is the logic some of us take issue with....Geof driving my 92 geo prism with 300,000 miles into the sunset to the Detroit Microsoft meeting:-).http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

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If you are not greedy, you go broke when you are are a mega- multinational company. If you are the Joe down the street selling apples from your home you can adjust your business practices every hour to fit your needs and be "fair" to your individual customers. In times past, did the community doctor charge all his patients the same amount? I don't think so. The "greed" is to balance the fair market price against the max margin that can be generated. If it is priced to high, the market will respond and tell you by not buying it. A company is in business to make the max margin they can. Not to build tractors, not to build software, not to build airplanes, and not to model aricraft in MSFS200x.Bob

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Ya know,It'd be nice if perhaps MS put a poll up on their page with a list of things people would like to see in the next version of FS. That way, everyone could get a chance to have an input into the software without neglecting the rest of the world. They could then maybe take the top 10 most voted, for example, ideas and incorporate them into the sim. And if they wanted to prevent duplicate votes, they could simply use the key code on your FS cd to record the user.After all, we are the consumer and if there weren't any of us, there wouldn't be any MS. And please don't respond with a "there'll always be someone to buy it" line. My point is that aren't you supposed to cater to your customers needs, wants, desires? I'm sure Boeing or Airbus listens intently to it's customers input on their product and incorporates their ideas into same. Sure, A 747 or an A330 might cost millions of dollars, but 5 million people buying FS also brings in millions of dollars.It just seems a little one sided.JMHO CF-AOA

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