Wilco

[Guest JTEK99]

>Well. If you're wondering how this would affect/kill the>add-on industry. Think about it. You know... all you "lawsuit" naysayers really ought to read the thread clearly. There isn't any lawsuit being threatened. The Belgian organization that the original poster referred to is basically a national department for consumer complaints (for Americans, think "Consumer Affairs Council" or "Better Business Bureau").>1) Few would dare to venture into the add-on industry for the>fear of being sued.Again, there isn't any lawsuit being threatened. Complaining to the consumer affairs organization by the original poster is a good thing and a sign of a healthy consumer base. It's also a healthy sign of a democracy when consumers don't fear the vendor and have an outlet to report malfeasance on the part of a vendor withOUT having to seek traditional legal recourse (i.e., lawyers).>You sure you want to do this? Maybe a very firm/stern legal>warning letter or something. But hopefully nothing financial>that will make them go bust. Its always about learning lessons>from your mistakes to improve yourself. That,i feel,is the>main idea for punishment.Not to drive you to a dead end.The fear of being driven "to a dead end" is traditionally what keeps people going in a business and -- dare I say it -- acting responsibly and professionally so that "dead end" can be avoided (and, still, there are no guarantees). But if the only fear is an occasional whine from consumers who have no recourse (the latter who are further menaced by apologists), then a given company will -- also traditionally -- take advantage of that fact and continue to repeat past behavior.You know what "free market" means, right? Well, let it flow, then. Wilco/Feelthere is "free" to market and release incongruent products, and the consumer base is free to reject said product, complain vociferously about said product, etc. You can't have one freedom without the other, after all. This entire thread is a cry from the generic consumer who, unfortunately, has been burned, rejected or ignored by various and sundry addon vendors. It isn't just about Wilco/Feelthere, I can assure you. They are simply the ones taking the heat for both their own consistently predictable foibles as well as the foibles of other developers who do the same thing.Simmers are sick of the lying, and rightly so. And, don't worry, Wilco/Feelthere won't go under. But hopefully, neither will the impact of these complaint threads. Because, as soon as they do and are forgotten, the former will return to its former behavior pattern. If Wilco/Feelthere is smart, then they'll get their proverbial act together, issue REAL mea culpas, fight the fire and begin the process of re-building consumer confidence outside the realm of a really excited user and apologists.

[Spaceman3 1]

>Spaceman3>>"I think I'll enjoy their product as they are actively>patching the major bugs.">>By all means enjoy but some folks don`t think that major bugs>should be part of the transaction.>Also I don`t remember seeing the phrase "Major bugs"mentioned>anywhere on the Wilco site as a feature.Could you link me to>that please?>Maybe you should get real.>>Pete>>Oh and by the way welcome to the forums as I see today is your>first.;)>>>Of course no one likes bugs, but if you buy software they are a fact of life. If you could point me to a complex flight sim add-on that has not required a patch I'd love to see it. Heck, I remember back when PMDG was starting with their first releases. People whined and complained then too. I think there were also legal threats at the time. And now look at their reputation. Some people just don't know how to keep perspective. Most people want it now and want it perfect. That just doesn't happen. Not even in the best of circumstances.Yeah, I haven't posted here in a long long time. But the current silliness just warranted a comment.

[Guest AOA]

Ozzie"Now - can someone get hold of all the advertising and press releases from Microsoft and send the list of inaccuracies (in French of course) to this great Belgian site for both FlightSim X and Vista"Whats stopping you?;)If you have a problem by all means seek redress.Please note that no one is calling you names though.Pete

[bigtallman 0]

Can we all just please calm down in here and stop talking about legal rights this is a sim, a game, an addon, a piece of entertainment and as far as im concerned a #### good one too and one that will be made better by upcoming service patches. If you want the real thing then I suggest you stop spending money on addons for a game and start saving for your ATPL. Until then people need to back off and let this company do its job in peace to finish a product that they have just released and are patching for us. I for one support the company and im asking for people to get off there backs, stop throwing stupid phrases about legal rights at them, stop stamping their feet saying the advert said this and that and I want this and that now or else and let them do there job. ITS A GAME PEOPLE REMEMBER THAT!! If you dont want to have to wait for patches then I suggest you buy the boxed version when available or wait for the patches to come out before you buy it. After all the majority of our sims need or warrant a patch after first release.Right rant over, now to find a tylonol!!Richard

[windycloud 30]

>Some people just don't know how to keep>perspective. Most people want it now and want it perfect. That>just doesn't happen. Well said. I remember my cousin said to me once a long time ago. "Come on, I'm just a kid in high school. Things have to happen now or they don't mean anything to me." He's grown up a lot since then. Why don't some of the people here do the same?Jason

[Guest JTEK99]

>Well to be honest I was on the fence whether to buy this>add-on. I have their 737 and it's decent. I also own the>original Wilco PIC A320 and while it had great potential, it>just had too many bugs to fly.What? Wilco released another buggy aircraft? Do tell!>Now this add-on comes along and people are complaining about>it a bit. Panic ensues. I see the usual, "I'm going to sue>them" thread which we see with just about every major add-on>release that is even slightly buggy. But you know what? I've>really grown tired of the whiners here. Funny... you just got here according to your post count. :) Lurker for years, eh?>So just to show my>support to FeelThere, I'm going to go buy the deluxe edition>right now. Thanks for pushing me off the fence. I think I'll>enjoy their product as they are actively patching the major>bugs.I always find it comical how the current state of consumer affairs for most folks is that acceptance of a non-functional product at release is a good thing. You've grown far used to this state of affairs, I see. Read on.(And, hey... don't forget to pick up a few Abacus and PerfectFlight planes as well. I'm sure they need the support of folks like you.)>Bottom line, if you can't afford 50 bucks for an add-on, maybe>you should stick to flying the default Cessna. Heck, 50 bucks>is what I pay for a night out at the movies. If the movie>sucks do you think I'm going to sue them? Get real."Sucks" is such a general word when it comes to taste in films. But, I agree: ####, no, you don't sue the movie company. However, consider this....- What if the theatre you attended had the sound crackling throughout the entire movie? - Or all the seats were damp? (ewww) - Or there was 10% of the screen blacked out on the right hand side? - Or there was a 3-foot gaping hole in the center of the screen? - Or the color was too washed out?- Or the popcorn was 40 days old?- Or the projector had to be stopped 40 times during the viewing for technical difficulties? Or... how about this one... Several years ago, you heard all these great things about a film called "Saving Private Ryan". The marketing on it was great, plenty of trailers, and all your friends at the pub say it will make you salivate, beat your chest, cry, and scream "AWESOME" at the end. So... fifty throw-away bucks in hand, you head down to the theatre with your significant other, see the movie posters for "Saving Private Ryan", buy tickets for it, sit down, and then the projector begins playing the film..... You're so excited!The movie starts with Tom Hanks in the amphibious landing craft talking to his men (strangely, the theatre, in its wisdom, cut out the cemetery scene at the beginning). Then, right after Tom's talk, the film skips the entire Omaha Beach sequence that you heard so much about, and then skips to the end. Then it restarts somewhere in the middle of the film. In a word, many important scenes you were ostensibly looking forward to are "missing".Would you complain and request a refund?Well, if you do, consider this: The manager at the theatre is nowhere to be found. In point of fact, not a single person in authority is to be found as you begin a search for someone responsible. A lone ticket-taker at the front of the theatre says: "Blame 20th Century Fox. You have no idea what's going on here. Move along."You walk away ######. And, just as you do, you hear the chatter of some folks outside who passed the time in the same cut-up, hacked-together version of "Saving Private Ryan". And you hear them say:- "Gee, wasn't that great?"- "Yeah, who cares that some scenes were missing! This theatre is great!"- "What about that guy who was complaining about the film? What a WHINER. Get over it, man."- "I like how the film was all mixed-up! I'll come back and watch it again because someone who works here told me they're going to re-arrange things. He said to come back and watch it again in six months! I can't wait!"- "Complainers suck! Don't they realize that if they complain too much, we won't have any theatres left in this town???"- "This was the best WWII film ever made, even though some of it is missing!"And, after all this, you see ME... JTEK99 (Jay)... walk up to the ticket counter and say:"I've really grown tired of complainers. Hey, just to show my support of this theatre, I want to purchase two tickets to see this film. That whiner over there [:pointing at you:] just pushed me off the fence.":)

[Guest SilverCircle]

>I hope you realise that you may kill add on industry if you>succeed.How so?It is all about advertising and waking wrong expectations. Nothing else. It is NOT about MSFS add-ons which don't behave like the real thing and NOT about missing or unimplemented features. Thats's fine, and we all know that any add-on has its limitations and shortcomings, even the best of the best are far from being perfect.Like I already wrote in another thread, it is about using "superlatives" like "fully authentic etc." for describing a product which cannot hold a single of the claims used for marketing purposes.This is wrong. Just think about someone who is new to all this stuff and does not have the experience and knowledge we all have after years of purchasing and using add-on products.There are vendors who get the advertising right. The product in my signature would be one example. Yes, they do claim that they offer the "most authentic Concorde simulation experience designed for the desktop computer" and this is simply the truth. But they also have a disclaimer statement on the page which states that the product is NOT a complete simulation and was designed for entertainment purpose only. It is really that simple. And guess what? I've *never* seen a single harsh complaint in their forum about a missing or unimplemented feature. People who purchase this product are aware what they get *before* they hit the purchase button: An excellent product, but definitely NOT a "fully complete" simulation.P.S. my personal opinion on taking legal action is that it seems a bit absurd to me. Complaining - yes, requesting a refund - yes. Anything else is not appropriate. People should calm down and wait for the patch(es). The fubar'd release already happened and there isn't any way to revert it.The "aggressive" way of advertising is, however, something which bothers me and said company is not the only one following that practice.

[Spaceman3 1]

If the film is great, a lot of those things you mentioned wouldn't matter to me. And the thing is, what FeelThere has provided in this add-on is great. FS has been lacking a detailed Airbus with an nice fully functional vc and full systems sim for a long time. I'm willing to deal with a few bugs to have that experience until they release a patch, just as I would've dealt with scratches on the print to see Star Wars for the first time back in 1977.I guess it boils down to how bad you want to see the movie or play with the new airplane. It's funny how spoiled this community has become over the years. What these developers are putting out these days blows away anything from 3 years ago, even in their initial release (buggy) states.Anyway, I went over to buy the plane and after futher research noticed that it doesn't have any support for online tcas nor sb integration. That's a biggie for me, so I may hold off until I hear a commitment from FeelThere that they'll put that in. See how easy that is? I don't have to whine. I don't have to sue. I just have to be patient until either they add what I'm looking for or another developer releases an Airbus of similar quality that does what I want.Too many drama queens here.

[Mike T 211]

The point has been made, over and over and over again, but it seems that its ignored and the apologist's argument referres back to the same old, "everyone is impatient and every one expects perfection" rubbish. So, one more example in hopes that one of you guys get it:You pay for a hotel in New York City that proclaims that every room has an "unobstructed" and breathtaking view of the NYC skyline. You've waited 3 years to take this vacation and are really looking forward to it. You rush upstairs to your room and your breath is indeed taken away. Your room has an "unobstructed" view of a brick wall and a sleeping vagrant.Okay here comes the test:A - The brick wall is technically part of the NYC skyline so you make the best of it, and rave to all your friends how great the view is of the NYC skyline.B - The Hotel is doing you a favor for accepting your money and letting you stay in their hotel and you call the Manager to tell him how lucky you are to be there and how much you've always wanted a view of a brick wall and a vagrant.C - You call the front desk and ask for another room but accept the response that they will move you when they are ready and if you continue to complain they will shut off your phone and ban you from staying there again. You realize the error of your ways and comment that the brick wall is the best you've ever seen and convince yourself that you are happier than if you had a view of the NYC skyline. D - You don't want the hotel to get angry with you if you complain and go out of business so you make reservations to stay in the same room 8 more times to show your support. You also overhear another couple complaning about their room and call them winers.E - You call the Hotel Manager and reread the hotel's advertisment to him. You ask him to come to your room and take a look at the difference between the advertisment and the actual room sold. You advise the Hotel Manager that he has two choices, either refund your money or put you in another room that reflects what you paid for. You also accept the manager's profuse apology in understanding that sometime these things happen, no one's perfect, and move on.F - You pretend you are an ostrich, stick your head under the mattress and hope that the brick wall and vagrant will go away. G - A, B, C, D & F

[Mike T 211]

:-xxrotflmao

[Guest jgreth123]

Damnit Mike, if I wasn't in my own office at work I'd be in trouble!LOL I couldn't help but bust out laughing on that one. :)

[Mike T 211]

I've already had three people come into my office and ask what's so funny. I nominate that one for post of the year! That even tops the infamous Ferd Berful "Who is Ponderosa" post!I can't take it! :-xxrotflmao I really hope that someone pins that one!

[AWACS 12]

>>E - You call the Hotel Manager and reread the hotel's advertisment to him. You ask him to come to your room and take a look at the difference between the advertisment and the actual room sold. You advise the Hotel Manager that he has two choices, either refund your money or put you in another room that reflects what you paid for. You also accept the manager's profuse apology in understanding that sometime these things happen, no one's perfect, and move on.<

[Guest QFA001]

People, how long are you going to struggle over this same issue? Seriously. Both side are doing nothing but rephasing the same thing over and over again. I'm getting tired reading it and this topic takes way too much space on the first page. I'm not trying to step anyone's toe but other than generating more banner advertisenment what's the point keeping this topic open? I mean, seriously will any side just tell the other that they are convienced and either let's burn wilco or let's support them? We've heard anything from lawsuit to let's nuke them but it's getting boring after a while. It's getting pretty pointless and taking away space and seriousness of this forum.At this point I'm no longer interested about the outcome but it's getting really annoying. Qluvr

[Guest JTEK99]

> I'm getting tired reading>it and this topic takes way too much space on the first page.I fail to see how the total space of around 2.5cm at the top of this page is considered "too much space"; more importantly, you can't get tired of reading something without clicking on it.If you don't like the topic, move on. I don't read every single topic in any online forum; I read what I'm interested in. >At this point I'm no longer interested about the outcome but>it's getting really annoying. If you're no longer interested in the outcome, then how could it possibly be annoying? Things one isn't interested in should be no cause for annoyance.I, for one, am glad there's a place to discuss these matters since any legitimate discussion of these issues is strictly prohibited at the Feelthere forums.Confused,J.