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mikkel

Shortest runway distance for takeoff

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What is the shortest possible takeoff distance for the MD-11? Lets say 2/3 full (cargo), and just a minimal amount of fuel for refueling at the nearest airport.Would be interesting to know:)

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What is the shortest possible takeoff distance for the MD-11? Lets say 2/3 full (cargo), and just a minimal amount of fuel for refueling at the nearest airport.Would be interesting to know:)
pretty short. Probably 5,000-7,000 ft would be my guess.

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pretty short. Probably 5,000-7,000 ft would be my guess.
I would like to transport some artifacts from Firenze to an expo in Paris, so could this be legally done with an MD 11?Only the charts can tell ;)

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I would like to transport some artifacts from Firenze to an expo in Paris, so could this be legally done with an MD 11?Only the charts can tell ;)
? You can always try it?I took the md-11 off at 400,00 zfw with 50,000lbs of fuel at kase (7,000 ft runway) at 8,000 msl and I had about 1,000-1,500 ft left.

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The takeoff required distance is not the legal required distance. You have to be able to accelerate to V1 then safely reject the takeoff and still have runway remaining, which is a longer distance than that required to takeoff and climb 50 ft. to clear obstructions.

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The takeoff required distance is not the legal required distance. You have to be able to accelerate to V1 then safely reject the takeoff and still have runway remaining, which is a longer distance than that required to takeoff and climb 50 ft. to clear obstructions.
I believe the legal V2 down-range, obstacle avoidance distance is actually 35 feet, but only to relate a little interesting background. So the story goes, this 35 feet was determined by the wingspan measurement of the multi-engine aircraft whereby (and thereby) the need for an engine-out V2/distance/clearance calculation became required, the DC3. The fence would be the 1st obstacle. Folklore? Da know, but it's fun to think about.I do remember an Air France flight I flew as a pax from LAX to CDG. The wheel-on-the-ground noise ceased and the runway departure threshold appeared simultaneously! There is No fence at the departure end of 24L. Therefore (I guess!), as long as they don't drag gear-in-sand, it's a legal takeoff. But still, that's with an engine that fails Immediately after V1. The post-V1 engine-out acceleration distance to Vlo (liftoff) would be longer. As we climbed out I blinked my eyes tight a couple of times as I reconsidered, "Woah. Now, what did I just see?" I still wonder: How could an engine failure, Anytime after V1, have allowed that takeoff to have successfully continued. See what I mean? If an engine had failed anytime after V1, we would have almost certainly ended up in the PCH (Pacific Coast Highway) sand trap. Good ol' Air France!

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Sam, I like the 35ft DC3 connection. I have a fence story too, when I was a 100 hr pilot with a girlfriend (that right there tells you this was a long time ago) and two fullsized parents in the back seat of a C172. I really sweat that takeoff and never did anything like that again.I just pulled 50ft obstacle out because that is the way takeoff distance is normally provided on those spec tables in magazines like AOPA Pilot. I am aware that there are NBAA calculations for balanced-field lenght and then there are Part 121 requirements but never had to dive into those. All my operations are under Part 90.Anyway, thanks for the lore.

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Sam, I like the 35ft DC3 connection. I have a fence story too, when I was a 100 hr pilot with a girlfriend (that right there tells you this was a long time ago) and two fullsized parents in the back seat of a C172. I really sweat that takeoff and never did anything like that again.I just pulled 50ft obstacle out because that is the way takeoff distance is normally provided on those spec tables in magazines like AOPA Pilot. I am aware that there are NBAA calculations for balanced-field lenght and then there are Part 121 requirements but never had to dive into those. All my operations are under Part 90.Anyway, thanks for the lore.
What do you fly now? I am a student pilot in the pre-solo stage doing nothing but crosswind touch-n-gos. I fly a cherokee pa-28-160 conversion and I love that plane.

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All my operations are under Part 90.
It is part 91 to be exact Dan.But you are absolutely right about the 50 ft obstacle clearance - this is what takeoff/landing performance tables normally provide. This is the value used in my C172 and Piper Archer pilot's manuals, I guess it accounts for some typical trees at the end of runways.

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I have had access to a C414 Chancellor for the last seven or eight years... flew a lot more up until 100LL went over $5/gal (we use about 38 of those an hour):She has RAM VI conversion and a Garmin 530; for not familiar, she is a turbcharged pressurized cabin class twin. Like I said, don't see her enough lately.

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I have had access to a C414 Chancellor for the last seven or eight years... flew a lot more up until 100LL went over $5/gal (we use about 38 of those an hour):She has RAM VI conversion and a Garmin 530; for not familiar, she is a turbcharged pressurized cabin class twin. Like I said, don't see her enough lately.
Yeah I can see why you don't fly as much $5.00 for 100LL is too much. Down here in Texas we've found a place that we can get if for $3.50 so we are still able to fly (the cherokee uses 10 per hour) Jeez planes use a lot of fuel.

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It is part 91 to be exact Dan.But you are absolutely right about the 50 ft obstacle clearance - this is what takeoff/landing performance tables normally provide. This is the value used in my C172 and Piper Archer pilot's manuals, I guess it accounts for some typical trees at the end of runways.
Indeed, 50ft is the obstacle clearance required for the smaller planes. For the big jets V1 is the speed at which to continue the take off after an engine failure and achieve 35ft (on dry runway) or 15 ft (on wet runway) and V2 within the remaining runway or clearway; or reject the takeoff when speed is less than V1 and be able to stop on the remaining runway incuding stopway.

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It is part 91 to be exact Dan.But you are absolutely right about the 50 ft obstacle clearance - this is what takeoff/landing performance tables normally provide. This is the value used in my C172 and Piper Archer pilot's manuals, I guess it accounts for some typical trees at the end of runways.
And for the big guys, it's not about trees. Every runway has its own Vspeed chart. For an accurate go/no-go analysis, it really would take an op center's Jepp subscription. Ever try to do one of those freehand on a paper chart? I finally got through it, but the how-to escaped me by the next day. I have an acquaintance that is an MD performance trainer at Alteon. Pilots are required to be able to come up with these numbers, by hand from a paper chart. Few can. He says that if a Fed wants someone, that's generally the way the job gets done.

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Sam, I've run some TERPS calcuations for departures (one of my ex's was an AF controller) and they build a chute starting at 50ft above the departure threshold of the airport and increasing in height and width and look for 400 agl before aircraft changes heading... that sets the obstacle clearance, departure minima etc. That was pretty involved.I remember a land owner next to the runway at Sumpter AFB SC (East of Columbia about 30 min) that grew pine trees and got paid by the AF to top them every couple years. Always admired his entreprenureship.

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For some commercial transport aircraft V1 and VR is the same. At some weights there is a knot or two difference. V2 is another 5 to 7 knots, again depending upon weight and atmospheric conditions. If an engine fails at V1 you continue the takeoff, hands off the throttle.

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Pilots are required to be able to come up with these numbers, by hand from a paper chart.
Actually it is not that difficult so I would think for real ATPs with thousands of hours it must be a piece of cake. 747-400 takeoff data is for example available for selected few runways on the PMDG Wiki pages courtesy captain Jon B. I actually wrote a brief explanation how to use them. :(

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The former TWA new hire manual has all of the landing data for each airport they serviced, to and from, with expected landing weights, +/- depending upon conditions at hub locations.Pretty much a canned flight profile that the engineer did his data cards from and double checked with the load sheet.

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