I am opening what I would consider an "official" thread concerning what is supposed to be that survey from Microsoft regarding their development of a new Flight Simulator game. This has turned out to be a very tricky topic for many reasons, and I would like to take the opportunity to lay out the entire situation as I see it point by point:1) Apparently, Microsoft is currently interested in reviving the Flight Simulator line of products, despite having cut production on FS11. We at AVSIM (and other flight sim websites) perhaps have become spoiled with regards to being able to communicate our wishes and issues with Microsoft regarding our hobby. I can remember the "bad old days" when Microsoft would niether confirm or deny that they were working on a new flight sim until the thing was being shipped to stores. Mostly, if they said anything at all, they said they wouldn'r continue FS. That was their operating procedure up until maybe around FS9. Then they incorporated "Evengelists" (their word for the job position) whose job it was to drum up public interest for their software, be it FS, a new version of Windows, or their MSOffice software. For a few years, we had a regular official Microsoft presence on AVSIM, notably through the nearly tireless presence of Phil Taylor who endured flight sim nerdiness above and beyond the call of duty. We had ACES team members show up at FANCON, and they seemed happy to answer any and all questions from the flight sim public. I think I even have one of their business cards lying around somewhere. Before FS9, you'd never ever get to see one of those. They are blue and nicely done, maybe collector's items by now. I should sell mine on E-bay, along with my Bip Roberts baseball card (and old television commercial pointed out that the Bip Roberts card was worth more crumpled up and torn than in mint condition). 1a) I am using words like "apparently", "supposed", "perhaps" and such like because I am trying to be factual, but it's very difficult for me to confirm my sources. So here is a big disclaimer: I do not know exactly for sure what is going on with this survey. I have one contact that I assume is with Microsoft, but I do not know this person, and I cannot confirm that he is really with Microsoft. It is entirely possible that someone is impersonating Microsoft services. Given the recent climate of sabotage at AVSIM, I would encourage readers to be skeptical of sources that cannot be confirmed to be genuine. As such, AVSIM is not to be held liable for the accuracy or inaccuracy of any information on this thread, and that readers use this information at their own risk. 2) Some people were contacted apparently by Microsoft, and asked to participate in a survey regarding the future of Flight Simulator. Primarily, Microsoft wanted to hear only from the people they had contacted. I was not one of the contactees, so I cannot at this time confirm the content of this survey. The front end of the survey contained a restrictive non-disclosure agreement or NDA. Having participated in Microsoft events which required a non-disclosure agreement , I can say that their NDA's do tend to be restrictive, but it's just part of doing business. Other companies are much the same. However some people may not be used to dealing with non-disclosure agreements. 2a) Some AVSIM members used AVSIM forums to publicly circumvent the NDA. This is open to debate, of course. I would consider an NDA to be binding, but I can see the point where others are concerned about the state of flight sim and would want to share information rather than restrict it. Let's be careful that we are not using this as an excuse to violate the NDA just for the sake of vandalism. At the outset, what I am assuming is Microsoft was concerned about this violation of terms. 3) Whom I assume is a representative from Microsoft contacted AVSIM and asked us to remove links to the survey. Here is the PM we recieved (I have editted the name):-----------Hello,Could you please remove any links to the MS Survey. It is important for us to get a proper sampling, this link posted publically could invalidate the results entirely. Thanks in advanced for prompt removal,Brandon XXXXGame Design - Microsoft Game Studios ----------This contact occurred on June 17, 2009. Using whiz-bang moderator powers, I found that the IP address for the PM did seem to originate from Microsoft HQ in Redmond, Washington, USA. 3a) Again open to debate is my decision to go into the forum and delete these links. I kept the messages otherwise intact and the threads remained open. However, I admit I was taking orders from someone I never met and don't know. I did try to follow up as best as I could. I contacted Brandon and that leads us to point 4:4) On June 18, 1009, I recieved this PM:----------Hi Jeff, After further discussions with our user research folks, we are fine with Avsim users filling out the survey. It is currently the only conduit we have for feedback. Thank you,Brandon XXXX----------I read this as a reversal of Brandon's previous stand, but I cannot comment on how this reflects on their NDA. Brandon (if not Microsoft) seems eager to hear from AVSIM.I thank you for reading this far, but the story isn't quite over yet. A) After deleting the links to the survey, I find that I cannot restore them. I have no idea where to find the survey again, or even if it is still running. I have not heard anything more from Brandon. B) If I get any more information on this topic, I will be sure to pass it on in this thread. I may just edit this post to include the new information.C) This thread may end up contravening the NDA. If so, it could be locked or deleted at any time, so do not be surprised if that happens. You now know at least as much as I do about this topic. Jeff ShylukSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIMEDIT #1: Here is an e-mail you can try, for contacting Microsoft. As before, I honestly do not know if this is legitimate or not. Maybe replying to this e-mail will get you onto some kind of scam list. Maybe you'll get ahold of Brandon. Maybe it's Bill Gates' personal e-mail. All I can say is that AVSIM will not be held in any way responsible for any liabilities created from the use of this e-mail. [email protected]

A) After deleting the links to the survey, I find that I cannot restore them. I have no idea where to find the survey again, or even if it is still running. I have not heard anything more from Brandon.

I have the link.//surveys.mgsuserresearch.com/Collector/Survey.ashx?Name=Flight_M_K_FSI&loginid=anon I removed https: from the beginning because otrherwise the forum software seems to shorten it it as follows:https://surveys.mgsuserresearch.com/Collect...mp;loginid=anonIt appears in full as I create the post but gets shortened in both preview and the actual post.

Hey Jeff,Brandon is a MS employee and used to be in Aces (he did work on Missions with Paul).The playtest email alias is legit, its the basic public access email address to sign up for the Play Test program (mainly this group runs in-house tests at MS locations, but might also do some online based testing as well, don't know on that one :-> ).Don't have any info on any of the rest of it though, I specifically don't learn what that group is up to, for the most part :->

Jeff, are you registered with the FSInsider newsletter?

For a legal way to access the survey, click No to indicate you do not agree with the confidentiality agreement, then proceed with the following pages.You cannot be held liable since you have already indicated that you do not agree with the confidentiality agreement, and yet you get to see what Microsoft Game Studios seek from this survey.Enjoy! (Before they fix this loophole.)

For a legal way to access the survey, click No to indicate you do not agree with the confidentiality agreement, then proceed with the following pages.You cannot be held liable since you have already indicated that you do not agree with the confidentiality agreement, and yet you get to see what Microsoft Game Studios seek from this survey.Enjoy! (Before they fix this loophole.)

The loophole's still not fixed. Microsoft seems to have shot itself in the foot on this one. There is no NDA after all!The NDA was never checked either. it begins "CONFIDENTIALITY. The information you receive during the course of the survey is are proprietary..." and then later refers to an unspecified Product.

The loophole's still not fixed. Microsoft seems to have shot itself in the foot on this one.

The only ones "shooting themselves in the foot" are people like you, who knowingly and maliciously violate an NDA that CLEARLY asks you not to divulge the existence of something.There is no "loophole". The NDA is clear. Just because you choose to use a typo or take advantage of an oversight doesn't mean what you're doing is right.The community is supposed to be better than this. Shame on you.

Thank you for providing the link again, that was most helpful. Also thank you to beatle for the additional background information!This means that both the link and the e-mail are legitimate. If you want to take part in the survey and have a say in your hobby, then go for it!Someone was asking me if I was subscribed to FSInsider. To tell the truth, I am not sure. Yes, I signed up for it, but since then I made changes to my e-mail, and I forgot all about it. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage AVSIM readers to keep the tone of this thread civil. I do think it's a good opportunity to discuss the nature of the NDA or confidentiality agreement. I do not think that we can discuss specific ways to circumvent it. Brandon at Microsoft has encouraged us to post the link. This in itself would seem to go against the NDA. Formalities aside, it's just a sign that Brandon is eager to hear from AVSIM. Based on that, wouldn't it be much more productive to supply your opinions on flight sim rather than your theories on how to get around a legal disclaimer? Put it this way, if people persist in trying to punch holes in the legal document, I will close and delete this thread. It's one thing to sit in your computer chair and rail at Microsoft, but it's totally another to do so using AVSIM's resources. AVSIM must not be held responsible for creating ill will with Microsoft. I hope I make myself clear here. I don't think we can discuss the content of the survey directly, at least not yet. However, I am sure everyone has on opinion of what should or should not go into FSNext. For now, I would suggest that as a topic we can discuss on this thread, even though there are some other "what we want to see in flight sim" threads out there. In the meantime, I will try and see if I can find out more about the nature of this survey. Probably Brandon has is own NDA to worry about.Jeff ShylukSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

The only ones "shooting themselves in the foot" are people like you, who knowingly and maliciously violate an NDA that CLEARLY asks you not to divulge the existence of something.There is no "loophole". The NDA is clear. Just because you choose to use a typo or take advantage of an oversight doesn't mean what you're doing is right.The community is supposed to be better than this. Shame on you.

I haven't violated anything because there isn't anything to violate. The NDA doesn't, and can't, apply to itself. Having seen it the NDA, with its reference to a survey, I know of the existence of the survey. If I chose not to accept the NDA I am still aware of the survey and nothing in the NDA can prevent me from divulging the existence of the survey. I am not bound legally or morally by an NDA I haven't accepted. What is the point of the NDA now anyway? Everyone who wanted to has by now seen the survey. This includes Microsoft's competitors - if any. The cat is out of the bag/the genie is out of the bottle and neither can be put back .

I tried the link adding https: and I got a screen that stated the survey was no longer active.

I tried the link adding https: and I got a screen that stated the survey was no longer active.

That seems to be that then.

Someone was asking me if I was subscribed to FSInsider. To tell the truth, I am not sure. Yes, I signed up for it, but since then I made changes to my e-mail, and I forgot all about it.

Reason I asked was, I got an invitation to the survey at the email address I signed up with FSInsider. But since you changed your email address that probably explains why you didn't get it.

Reason I asked was, I got an invitation to the survey at the email address I signed up with FSInsider. But since you changed your email address that probably explains why you didn't get it.

That's what I figure as well, and as I missed it, I can't get the link without someone else's help.As far as I know, the survey is still active. If the link doesn't work, you might have a spelling issue, or some other problem in play. If someone else has a link, let's try that.Brandon is restricted from commenting on the survey because of his own NDA, no surprise. I hope to hear soon from the survey researchers themselves.Jeff ShylukSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

That's what I figure as well, and as I missed it, I can't get the link without someone else's help.As far as I know, the survey is still active. If the link doesn't work, you might have a spelling issue, or some other problem in play. If someone else has a link, let's try that.Brandon is restricted from commenting on the survey because of his own NDA, no surprise. I hope to hear soon from the survey researchers themselves.Jeff ShylukSenior Staff ReviewerAVSIM

I tried the link again immediately after the post saying it was no longer active. Thiat was the message I got and m still get.If the survey is still active Microsoft have moved it elsewhere.

What's the point of a survey if it isn't completely open and you're only asking select people to complete it?