MD-11. Too high pitch on take off.

[Mace 1,963]

Fellas I have found that the FLEX setting directly affects the pitch on climbout.Too much, or not enough derate seems to cause the computer to command excessive pitch and in so doing, the airspeed drops low enough that the protection kicks in.At least that's my experience with it. ... all FLEX.The hard part is finding a good FLEX setting for your weight AND temperature. If anyone has any resources on this, let me know. So far, I've been going off experience with takeoffs and weights to get a close FLEX value, but even so sometimes I am still off.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Remember - thrust affects pitch directly. She's got a high engine on the tail so should result in a pitch down tendency with higher thrust. Lower thrust will result in the up trim being more effective than usual - sounds like this is what you're encountering.Try trimming more nose-down than usual (e.g. 0.3 units shy of the nose down trim limit) and see how she reacts then.Best regards,Robin.

[theace6 0]

So, summarizing this long topic we have following for a smooth take off with no Protection announcements appearing:- FLEX: Feed the FMS with an appropriate value, especially for derated T/O (try Flex 55, 57 or 60)- Press AP before take off to engage A/T- At 200 ft press NAV (if desired)- At 400 ft press/engage AP. Also press FMS SPD- At 1500 ft press/engage PROFILE- AFTER passing accelaration altitude retract flaps when passing the appropriate speed- Retract slats at the appropriate speed.

Why not try using the actual real takeoff profiles that I put on the forum so you don't need to use FLEX. And unless people are needing to pitch more up than 25 degrees on takeoff I believe the thread name should be changed to just High Pitch on take off. Since 25 degrees is the max deck angle on takeoff up to 400ft AFL. And during short flights I have heard from real MD11 pilots that you can easily use 30 degrees pitch during climb.Kevin W.

[c402_cvs 0]

I regurly uses FLEX temps of 60C and never had this problem. Are you flying the directors perfectly?If you want a good performance too I will highly recommend TOPCAT. It's for the GE motors but since the PW are more powerful you error will be on the safe side.FRED

[Guest MikeKear]

Why not try using the actual real takeoff profiles that I put on the forum so you don't need to use FLEX. And unless people are needing to pitch more up than 25 degrees on takeoff I believe the thread name should be changed to just High Pitch on take off. Since 25 degrees is the max deck angle on takeoff up to 400ft AFL. And during short flights I have heard from real MD11 pilots that you can easily use 30 degrees pitch during climb.Kevin W.

Kevin your posts about the actual real world procedures prompted me to have a try at that last night. Up until now, I have allowed the automatic flight systems to do everything and I thought trying those procedures offered an opportunity to learn more about this MD-11 beast. But i wasn't prepared for all the lessons i had to learn.For example ... With a V2 of 154kt, that would mean i should be climbing away from the runway at about 164kt. I found it almost impossible for me to keep the speed below 185kt, even with a deck angle of about 25degrees. I assume that's because I had too much thrust for the circumstances (hence my question about flex elsewhere on this forum).Reducing the FS2004 sim speed to half speed gave me a bit more time to figure out what to do next, but even so there is a lot happening all at once and I had to hit the pause button every minute or two while i worked out what to do next. (I realise that'll not be a problem once i have more practice - a routine learned and understand what happens next and what has to happen when.)I found that i have my desk laid out wrong for the things i have to do to fly this way. I use the joystick with my right hand, and use my left for the throttle. I also use the mouse with my right hand. This isnt a problem when I'm using the automatic systems to do all the work, but when I'm following the procedures you posted, there is a lot of swapping of my right hand back and forth between the joystick and the mouse. Every time i take my hand off the joystick to use the mouse, the pitch or the heading goes off the FD lines and i have to wrestle with them again once i have finished using the mouse. I suspect i need to learn to use the joystick with my left hand instead, since i cant imagine ever learning to use the mouse with my left hand. I'm not dextrous enough with my left hand for that. That would be closer to the real world experience anyway since from what i can tell, real world pilots keep the left hand on the yoke, and use the right hand for manipulating switches and knobs on the panel.There are a lot of things to keep track of all at once in the few seconds after takeoff - airspeed, altitude, what has to happen at each altitude, heading, gear, flaps, pitch, roll, etc etc. - it's a challenge to keep scanning all those variables. I tend to concentrate on one of them that's heading out of the required parameters, and while i'm correcting that, another one goes out of parameter. I suppose it's a bit easier to cope with in the real world because there are two pilots carrying all that workload, and some of the inputs come from the feeling in the 'seat of the pants' rather than having to watch the instruments. In a simulator with a single screen on a desk, you don't get the feeling of your seat tilting or rolling which would help real world pilots know if the aircraft is pointed in the right direction.The MD-11 is a tricky horse to ride!

[theace6 0]

For example ... With a V2 of 154kt, that would mean i should be climbing away from the runway at about 164kt.Reducing the FS2004 sim speed to half speed gave me a bit more time to figure out what to do next, but even so there is a lot happening all at once and I had to hit the pause button every minute or two while i worked out what to do next.

Thank you for trying the the takeoff profile and giving some feedback, I know it goes by pretty fast the whole profile usually only lasts about 1.5 - 2 minutes. But it gets easier as you practice it and get used to it. But with trying to hold V2+10 are you accelerating to SR/V3 at 800ft AFL in the domestic procedure or holding V2+10 until 3000ft AFL like in the international procedure? Just wondering because I've never had a problem with too high pitch, but I've never tried the Intl. procedure.Kevin W.

[Guest MikeKear]

Thank you for trying the the takeoff profile and giving some feedback, I know it goes by pretty fast the whole profile usually only lasts about 1.5 - 2 minutes. But it gets easier as you practice it and get used to it. But with trying to hold V2+10 are you accelerating to SR/V3 at 800ft AFL in the domestic procedure or holding V2+10 until 3000ft AFL like in the international procedure? Just wondering because I've never had a problem with too high pitch, but I've never tried the Intl. procedure.Kevin W.

Kevin I know this makes me look like a dufus, but i dont even know what V3 is. I'm assuming it's a speed somewhat higher than V2, but I've never seen it referred to anywhere except in your posts.

[theace6 0]

Kevin I know this makes me look like a dufus, but i dont even know what V3 is. I'm assuming it's a speed somewhat higher than V2, but I've never seen it referred to anywhere except in your posts.

SR/V3 is a speed given to you on the takeoff perf page in the FMC and is the slat retraction speed. It is substantially higher than V2 usually between 30-50kt higher.Kevin W.

[Guest MikeKear]

SR/V3 is a speed given to you on the takeoff perf page in the FMC and is the slat retraction speed. It is substantially higher than V2 usually between 30-50kt higher.Kevin W.

Kevin, now I feel like even more of a dufus! I look at that page and there is a lot of stuff there that I've never paid any attention to. For example, there's V1, Vr, and V2, which i've paid a lot of attention to, but I see there's also VFR, VSR/V3, and VCL that i have never noticed before. Yes they've been there, but i have never given them any mind at all.But then i havent paid any attention to CLBThrust, Accel or EO Accel either. I'm assuming they are the altitudes at which the CLB Thrust, the Accel thrust or the Engine Out Accel thrust (respectively) will kick in Just as a matter of interest, for the example i just set up, the speeds calculated were: V1: 147VR: 162V2: 172VFR: 182VSR/V3: 237VCL: 267CLBThrust: 1553Accel: 3053EOAccel: 853so in this case, the V3 was 65kt above V2. So it seems by trying to keep my airspeed at V2+10 i was really trying the impossible - no wonder i had to pitch up to nearly 30Deg to achieve it. And i should be having a target airspeed of 172 as i climb off the runway, accelerating to a max of 237 until 1553ft.Is that the correct understanding ?

[theace6 0]

Kevin, now I feel like even more of a dufus! I look at that page and there is a lot of stuff there that I've never paid any attention to. For example, there's V1, Vr, and V2, which i've paid a lot of attention to, but I see there's also VFR, VSR/V3, and VCL that i have never noticed before. Yes they've been there, but i have never given them any mind at all.But then i havent paid any attention to CLBThrust, Accel or EO Accel either. I'm assuming they are the altitudes at which the CLB Thrust, the Accel thrust or the Engine Out Accel thrust (respectively) will kick in Just as a matter of interest, for the example i just set up, the speeds calculated were: V1: 147VR: 162V2: 172VFR: 182VSR/V3: 237VCL: 267CLBThrust: 1553Accel: 3053EOAccel: 853so in this case, the V3 was 65kt above V2. So it seems by trying to keep my airspeed at V2+10 i was really trying the impossible - no wonder i had to pitch up to nearly 30Deg to achieve it. And i should be having a target airspeed of 172 as i climb off the runway, accelerating to a max of 237 until 1553ft.Is that the correct understanding ?

In this case if you are using the domestic procedure for the speeds you would maintain V2+10 = 182 KTS until 800ft AFL. Then at 800ft AFL you would accelerate to maintain SR/V3 = 237 KTS, then at 2500ft AFL press the FMS SPD button and accelerate to the FMS SPD. But using the international procedure you would maintain V2+10 = 182 KTS until 3000tf AFL then at 3000ft AFL you would press the FMS SPD button and accelerate. Now that you know what the SR/V3 speed is you will be able to go back and take a look at the whole profile and perform it alot easier. Let me know if the takeoffs get any better with the pitch.Kevin W

[3-2-1-Now 126]

The MD-11 is a tricky horse to ride!

No, she's just powerful.V2+10 is the hardest speed to deal with, as you've just lifted off, and she's producing lots of power with a high deck angle.Just checking the manuals, it isn't clear if +25

[Guest MikeKear]

No, she's just powerful.V2+10 is the hardest speed to deal with, as you've just lifted off, and she's producing lots of power with a high deck angle.Just checking the manuals, it isn't clear if +25

[c402_cvs 0]

I think what might happen here is that you have not setup everything, headings, target altitude, nav aid frequencies etc etc correctly before entering the runway. Set these up well in advance and upto V3 all you really have to do is pull up the gear and retract the flaps on schedule. If you hand fly her, that's it, no other buttons to push. Like someone here already said, you need to be in front of the aircraft not behind when flying her. FRED

[Check_Airman 3]

Good point Fred.Mike, you need to be WELL ahead of the airplaine. ESPECIALLY in a single pilot environment. That means having the frequencies set up, studying the SID, briefing the T/O sequence etc. Things move really fast on the MD11 once the FMA shows TO THRUST, so there's no time to think about what comes next- it has to be automatic. That also includes emergencies.One last thing is that the MD11 requires MUCH more pitch on initial climb to keep the profile. Just keep pulling back until you find that pitch. Don't give up; keep on doing it and you'll be proficient in no time.Paul

[Check_Airman 3]

Just checking the manuals, it isn't clear if +25