MD-11. Too high pitch on take off.

[downscc 1,327]

On reducing power on initial climb...be sure to brief it beforehand. Depending on your seat, the other pilot may either clench his cheeks, or hit you in the head with the FOM.

:(

[Guest MikeKear]

It's my understanding that it's mostly a passenger comfort thing. At the same time, don't be too quick to pull WAY back. At those high body angles, you run out of speed very fast and you may well exceed the negative g-load limit trying to push the nose down to recover the speed.On reducing power on initial climb...be sure to brief it beforehand. Depending on your seat, the other pilot may either clench his cheeks, or hit you in the head with the FOM.Paul

Thank you for you thoughts Paul, Fred, Robin and others. Just so you know where I'm coming from here, I'm not a complete novice on the MD-11 - I've flown the complete World Flight 2008 plan in it ( see http://www.worldflight.com.au/ ) but i have always used the full automation as described in the tutorial flight with full autoland. That's ok, and the aircraft behaves just fine, but i dont think by doing that all the time I'm really understanding the monster, or learning much about flying it. And that's why I'm more interested now in learning to hand fly the takeoffs, and hand fly the landings more.There's no possibility I'm going to give up on it. Until such time as i upgrade my machine and go to FSX, this is as good as it's going to get for me. The MD-11 is an awesome simulation, and a challenge. It's just boring to keep doing the same thing again and again. I get my fun out of learning something new. I figure if real world pilots hand fly the takeoffs and landings more often than not, and if other FS2004 users also hand fly takeoffs and landings, then I want to learn how to do that too.As a result of doing these sorts of things, I now watch B747-400s taking off from Sydney's Kingsford Smith airport (YSSY) and the C17s and C130s taking off from our nearby Richmond Airbase (YSRI) with a new sense of awe and understanding. Now i know a lot about what's going on in the flight deck as they roar overhead that i could only imagine before i discovered PMDG add-ons.There's another question I've asked a couple of times that no one's answered. Perhaps it might be best if i put it in a new thread - about how others position the joystick/yoke and the mouse on the desk. I use a digital joystick, and when I move my right hand from the joystick to the mouse during a takeoff, that inevitably means something goes haywire - the pitch changes or the heading changes or both while I'm busy with the mouse. So how do you hand-flyers handle that aspect? Assuming you're right handed like me, do you use the stick with your left hand and the mouse with your right like an Airbus pilot? Or left hand on the mouse? or do you do what i do and have your right hand for both, but you're just more practiced/adept than i am?

[3-2-1-Now 126]

On reducing power on initial climb...be sure to brief it beforehand. Depending on your seat, the other pilot may either clench his cheeks, or hit you in the head with the FOM.

:(

+1!!!!I'm not harsh with the pitch - I target a certain pitch (approx. 15 when light) and then monitor it closely thereafter.Regarding power during initial climb - push over then power off. :)

There's another question I've asked a couple of times that no one's answered. Perhaps it might be best if i put it in a new thread - about how others position the joystick/yoke and the mouse on the desk. I use a digital joystick, and when I move my right hand from the joystick to the mouse during a takeoff, that inevitably means something goes haywire - the pitch changes or the heading changes or both while I'm busy with the mouse. So how do you hand-flyers handle that aspect?Assuming you're right handed like me, do you use the stick with your left hand and the mouse with your right like an Airbus pilot? Or left hand on the mouse? or do you do what i do and have your right hand for both, but you're just more practiced/adept than i am?

Rule #1 - the only thing you do during a turn, is turn.Wings level, always trim for hands-off flight. Remember that changes in speed/power affect pitch and require trimming. Make the speed change first, then trim.Regarding pitch changes in tuns - I've found the MD-11 requires approx. a 7 degree change in pitch for a 30

[Guest MikeKear]

+1!!!!I'm not harsh with the pitch - I target a certain pitch (approx. 15 when light) and then monitor it closely thereafter.Regarding power during initial climb - push over then power off. :)Rule #1 - the only thing you do during a turn, is turn.Wings level, always trim for hands-off flight. Remember that changes in speed/power affect pitch and require trimming. Make the speed change first, then trim.Regarding pitch changes in tuns - I've found the MD-11 requires approx. a 7 degree change in pitch for a 30

[Check_Airman 3]

So i'm 300 feet off the runway. In a second or two i'm going to have to push the Autoflight button.

That's the problem. Fly the plane and get used to how she feels. Don't engage the AP at 400ft. Wait until 4000ft, or 14,000ft or 40,000ft. That way you know exactly how much force to apply and when to apply it. You won't have problems with takeoffs once you master that skill.Paul

[Guest MikeKear]

That's the problem. Fly the plane and get used to how she feels. Don't engage the AP at 400ft. Wait until 4000ft, or 14,000ft or 40,000ft. That way you know exactly how much force to apply and when to apply it. You won't have problems with takeoffs once you master that skill.Paul

YES BUT PLEASE CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION??? This thread now has more than 75 posts. I got the idea a long time ago about practice and mastering the skill. I have asked 5 times now and no one seems to be willing to answer me. DO you work your mouse with the same hand as you use for the joystick? If so, how do you arrange them? IF you're right handed, do you use the left for the joystick and right for the mouse? Or do you work both joystick and mouse with the right hand? OR do you use the joystick with the right hand and the mouse with the left? Otherwise, how do you manage to press any buttons, while at the same time controlling the aircraft that isnt on autoflight? I'm sorry am i being too obtuse with this? I thought my question was simple enough to understand. APparently not. Can anyone help me with how to phrase the question so that people will answer me??

[Check_Airman 3]

Sorry.I control my mouse and joystick with my right hand. The secret is to have it properly trimmed at all times. It's dough, but doable.Paul

[c402_cvs 0]

I have a yoke so I just take my right and off it to use the mouse. Left hand is still flying the airplane. But, trim trim trim all the time!!FRED

[Guest MikeKear]

I have a yoke so I just take my right and off it to use the mouse. Left hand is still flying the airplane. But, trim trim trim all the time!!FRED

Seems like i had better assign trim to one of the thumb buttons on my joystick then. I have gear, flaps up, flaps down, and radio press to talk for VATSIM on it now. I can get rid of flaps up and flaps down from the joystick and use the default F buttons instead (F5, F6, F7, F8 for flaps) then have gear, radio press to talk on the left side of the joystick, and trim nose up and trim nose down on the other two i guess. That should make it easier to manage I think. Also i might try moving the joystick to the left, to use my left hand on it, as it would be if i had a yoke. I'd be using my left hand on the wheel, and using my right to press buttons and spin knobs if that was the case. So if i move the joystick to the left of the keyboard that would approximate that I suppose and at the same time add some realism really, since that's how real world left seat pilots use their hands too.Thanks for your input, Fred and Paul.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

YES BUT PLEASE CAN YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION???

Please, calm down. You asked how we do it. We can do it because we can fly the aircraft by hand.The aircraft can be trimmed for hands-off flight in a steep climb. You can feel through the yoke how it is balanced, so you can jump on the trim. It's not 100% correct to the real-world, but that is in part due to the fact the stick will not stay where you put it as in real life.Unless there is a nice straight out climb, it isn't usual for the crew to hit the autopilot at 400 ft anyway. It is a very critical phase of flight and it is far better to be flying it. You've got a high deck angle, full power, you're low so a bird strike is still quite a risk, and if it is gusty you could encounter wind-shear as well.Engine failure now is why some aircraft ended up in the ground shortly after takeoff. As soon as you notice it yawing you've got to reduce pitch and counter the yaw, otherwise you'll stall with no room to recover (set up lined up, ready to go, then set either #1 or #3 to fail 1 minute later).Don't look at the autopilot as a must-have-engaged thing, look at it merely as a way of reducing workload. In the initial climb you should be doing little anyway. After lift-off, positive rate, gear up, fly the first and second segment climbs, then run the TO checklist. Things will be a bit more sensible (climb power, lower deck angle through acceleration) and it is a more suitable to engage the autopilot now if you don't want to fly it.For best results don't engage the autopilot until you've trimmed anyway. You will find it transition much smoother if you do this.

Seems like i had better assign trim to one of the thumb buttons on my joystick then.

I would say this is an absolute must.Best regards,Robin.

[Guest Tomliboo]

Thanks Robin but i dont think you understood my question. So let me explain my confusion another way. ...So i'm 300 feet off the runway. In a second or two i'm going to have to push the Autoflight button. The aircraft isnt in any thing like stable level flight. I'm using my right hand to hold the joystick, and control the airspeed with the pitch. It wants to increase pitch, reduce pitch, turn left, turn right, and i need to keep my hand on the joystick until its settled into a steady climb at the right thrust level. How do i press the Autoflight button? I take my hand off the joystick and press the button with my mouse, since this is a simulator and i have no copilot here. Soon as i take my hand off the joystick, the plane will start veering to the left or right, or the pitch will change up or down. By the time i get my hand back on the joystick again, there is quite a correction required. Is this what you do too?? do you use the same hand for both the joystick and the mouse or not? Why am i the only one that seems to be using a computer and MS FS2004 to fly this MD-11? How come everyone else seems to have a copilot??

Hi Mike,I understand. Had exactly the same probs. How did I fix it for my way of flying (whether its the right way or the wrong way who cares, it works for ME)? I have a saitek X52 Joystick and Throttle and just PROGRAMMED the available joystick buttons/switches to do extra tasks without taking my hands of the controls, i.e, Autoflight, NAV, PROF, Speedbrakes, Gear, Autoiliot Disconnect etc. Now I dont get in a mess when on climb out.lol.Help it helped, what joystick do u own? Is it programmable?regardsTom L

[Guest MikeKear]

Please, calm down. You asked how we do it. We can do it because we can fly the aircraft by hand.The aircraft can be trimmed for hands-off flight in a steep climb. You can feel through the yoke how it is balanced, so you can jump on the trim. It's not 100% correct to the real-world, but that is in part due to the fact the stick will not stay where you put it as in real life.Unless there is a nice straight out climb, it isn't usual for the crew to hit the autopilot at 400 ft anyway. It is a very critical phase of flight and it is far better to be flying it. You've got a high deck angle, full power, you're low so a bird strike is still quite a risk, and if it is gusty you could encounter wind-shear as well.Engine failure now is why some aircraft ended up in the ground shortly after takeoff. As soon as you notice it yawing you've got to reduce pitch and counter the yaw, otherwise you'll stall with no room to recover (set up lined up, ready to go, then set either #1 or #3 to fail 1 minute later).Don't look at the autopilot as a must-have-engaged thing, look at it merely as a way of reducing workload. In the initial climb you should be doing little anyway. After lift-off, positive rate, gear up, fly the first and second segment climbs, then run the TO checklist. Things will be a bit more sensible (climb power, lower deck angle through acceleration) and it is a more suitable to engage the autopilot now if you don't want to fly it.For best results don't engage the autopilot until you've trimmed anyway. You will find it transition much smoother if you do this.Best regards,Robin.

Robin, I got that about 25 posts ago. I understand all that! I GET that you dont turn on the autoflight until 3000ft or more. You keep on repeating something I already understand and I have been saying I understand. I am asking another question and it seems as though you refuse to even read it ...... I'm still asking the question only Tom seems to have the wits to answer.I'll quote from the American Airlines procedures, posted earlier in this thread - a LONG time ago - and I 'GOT IT' THEN!! .. what I DIDN'T get was the physical How-to ... I'll ask for the SIXTH time .........Here's what was described in the AA procedures:

2nd seg/ 400ft Pull HDG select knob or select NAV /

Ok so how do YOU do something like that? If you have your right hand on the joystick, how do you pull HDG select knob? If you let go of the joystick right then, the aircraft pitches up or down or rolls left or right. So i'm asking you, Robin, or Paul, or Fred, HOW do you do that? What is your desk layout like? Which hands are you using for what??Please dont lecture me again about when or not to press buttons. I GOT that! FOr a whole day now, I have been trying to find out how you lay out your desk . What hand you use for doing what. IF you dont want to tell me, just say so and I'll ask someone else.Apparently only Tom has understood my question.Tom, I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro joystick. It has 4 programmable buttons at the top of the stick for the thumb, an index finger trigger which i use for brake, and a hat switch at the top for moving the view angle. And it has 6 programmable buttons on the base, but you have to take your hand off the stick to press them, so they arent much use. So I've been doing some practice with trim up and trim down on the thumb, also radio press to talk and autoflight on/off on the other two. That makes some sense and has meant I dont have to take my hand off the stick at the critical moments.But it's still far from perfect. I'm getting FAR from smooth takeoffs. I get positive rate, click the gear knob and by the time my eyes are focussed on the PFD again, we're at 800 ft, and 190kt. Going too fast for that point, according to those AA Domestic procedures. I know, I know, I know ... practice some more!

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Hi,If you think the MD-11 has a high deck angle when light, check this out: EDIT: Hmm. AVSIM does not permit links to Airliners NET. Search for Concorde Takeoff. :)

Ok so how do YOU do something like that?

Here is a step-by-step:* Before or after line-up, but before line-up checks:- Check AFS Speed, Heading and Altitude are set and cross-check with PFD/ND- Pull knobs for speed, heading and altitude. Observe FMA for white SPEED, HEADING, ALTITUDE.- Arm managed NAV mode. Observe NAV is armed on FMA.* After line-up:- Press Autopilot engagement. Observe speed mode PITCH on right hand side, no AT box. AT is now armed for takeoff.* Perform line-up checklist* Release brakes (or hold the brakes and wind in no more than 50% N1).* Release brakes, apply full takeoff thrust. At 80% N1 or so you will hear a clunk followed by the AT system taking over thrust.* At 80 kts observe auto-thrust CLAMP.* Monitor takeoff performance, engine parameters. Be prepared to stop* At V1, take hand off the throttle - you're GO* Depending on Vr, start to ease back on the stick to lighten the front end* By Vr, should have around +8 degrees of pitch and lift off.* At positive rate call, raise the gear* Ease the nose up to hold V2+10.* At this point you should already be feeling the balance. If you got it right, it should be trimmed very slightly nose down.* If you have a straight-ahead first segment climb, find the *pitch* that holds V2+10, then trim* Once trimmed so there is no force on the stick to hold the pitch, and the speed is stable, let go NOW and engage the autopilotIf you were monitoring the systems, you should see that NAV is now ACTIVE, the aircraft will be holding V2+10 (or the speed you set in the AFS prior to departure).* Engage PROF if you desire.* If you want managed speed, set that after engaging PROF.Monitor the climb, etc...I hope this helps.Best regards,Robin.

[theace6 0]

- Arm managed NAV mode. Observe NAV is armed on FMA.

You would only want to arm NAV if you are flying a RNAV SID, because most of the time on departure the ATC will be giving you heading vectors to your first waypoint, and most SIDS want you to fly a heading on departure and from what I've seen the PMDG MD11 FMC doesn't simulate these type of SID's.Kevin W.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

It supports TRK xxx UNYIL yyy where xxx is heading, and yyy is an altitude.It also supports the VECTORS type (displays MANUAL in the flight plan page).You could haveRNW 31 TRK 315 UNTIL 1000 VECTORS ...Best regards,Robin.