Interesting Announcement from Microsoft

[mgh 89]

Coincidently you leave out that MW2 only sold 170,000 units on the PC in it's first month released. MW2 sold 97% of it's sales on console. FSX never was released on console. You CAN NOT compare those numbers without it being a skewed result.

So we shouldn't count the 97% of MW2 games sold for consoles - they didn't earn any revenue for the developers? We are talking about sales of games full stop. The platform is irrelevant. Sales of Flight Simulator are trivial compared with the best selling games - why is the platform significant? I know there can be intellectual snobbery in these forums about console game but that doesn't alter the fact that consoles are where games are sold and that's where developers will put their efforts. Possibly, just possibly, the demise of ACES was affected by that consideration.

Also: NPD only factors in places like Best Buy, and Walmart, and only in the USA. In other words, if you bought it from say, the AVSIM store, Just Flight, or GoGamer, it wouldn't show up on NPD. The NPD numbers aren't accurate for any recent PC games that have been released on Steam, or any of those providers ether.

I quoted figures for the USA because that's where I was told the 1 million Flight Simulator sales came from. Have you any better numbers than NPDs?Can anyone provide a link to the often quoted sales of 1 million?

[Peter Clemenko 0]

So we shouldn't count the 97% of MW2 games sold for consoles - they didn't earn any revenue for the developers? We are talking about sales of games full stop. The platform is irrelevant. Sales of Flight Simulator are trivial compared with the best selling games - why is the platform significant? I know there can be intellectual snobbery in these forums about console game but that doesn't alter the fact that consoles are where games are sold and that's where developers will put their efforts. Possibly, just possibly, the demise of ACES was affected by that consideration.

Because you are comparing apples to oranges. If you want to compare something, compare like objects, let's talk about a game that was only released on PC verses a game only released on PC, or compare PC sales to PC sales. If this were a question of PC sales VS console sales, that would be acceptable as well, if it were the same game, but it's not.

I quoted figures for the USA because that's where I was told the 1 million Flight Simulator sales came from. Have you any better numbers than NPDs?Can anyone provide a link to the often quoted sales of 1 million?

Given that Microsoft had activations on FSX until the Gold edition was released, I would trust MS's ability to check their activation servers more. However on the same note, I would like to see that link myself.

[mgh 89]

Because you are comparing apples to oranges. If you want to compare something, compare like objects, let's talk about a game that was only released on PC verses a game only released on PC, or compare PC sales to PC sales. If this were a question of PC sales VS console sales, that would be acceptable as well, if it were the same game, but it's not.

To paraphrase, a game is a game is a game. I am comparing like with like: video games with video games regardless of platform. It's you who is being selective by omitting of 97% of all games from your comparison.NPD's figure show the revenue from all PC games sales is less than 3% of the total revenue from games sales. Given that Flight Simulator desn't even appear in the top 10 PC games sales it's very definitely a niche market. It's total revenue is probably of the order of 1% of the total.Until I see a link to the 1 million sales figure I'm inclined to ignore it, given that NPD gave 280 thousand for 2007. There may be some sales that weren't counted but commonsense suggests NPD is unlikely to be in error by a factor of almost 4.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

Given that Flight Simulator desn't even appear in the top 10 PC games sales it's very definitely a niche market. It's total revenue is probably of the order of 1% of the total.Until I see a link to the 1 million sales figure I'm inclined to ignore it, given that NPD gave 280 thousand for 2007. There may be some sales that weren't counted but commonsense suggests NPD is unlikely to be in error by a factor of almost 4.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17129I'm not even continuing this conversation with you, as you just proved you are a troll. Thank you for falling in to my troll snare trap. I suspected it for a while, but this just confirms it.

[momtchil 32]

Ofcourse you can't compare sales for software like FSX (released solely for the PC) with any game made for both PC and consoles - such a comparison is flawed. Now if FSX also had a release for the consoles (impossible as it simply can't translate into a console format at present) - you may have an argument, as its not you don't. If you want to compare it to something compare it to a game/simulation software released solely for the PCAlso its silly only considering sales figures for FSX from the USA, without any idea of the sales figures world-wide (especially from Europe).But 'mgh' knows best - right?Flight simulation software for PC can be considered a niche market - yes. BUT its a big niche market (as far niche markets go), and with any luck it will grow even bigger with time. Looking at this FS niche market - how much bigger has it gotten since the 90s? - Much bigger. Hopefully at some point in the future it won't even be considered a niche anymore. I'm hoping that will happen when a new steady GOOD FS product is launched (by whoever). However until a new successful sim is launched we may see some stagnation, but the demand for a good FS (combat and civil) will always be there. Another important thing to know about the FS niche market is that it is a GLOBAL Market, anybody with a reasonable PC system and an interest in aviation is a potential consumer.Peter, I thought 'mgh' might be a troll myself a few times. I still have my suspicions as to his exact motives, but not sure if he's a troll, 'Mr Argument' - he is; 'Capt. Nega Tivity' - yes; but I don't think he's a troll (yet) - could be wrong though. Arguing with him is largely pointless, 'mgh' is set in his views and will argue the same point over and over again forever if needed.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

Ofcourse you can't compare sales for software like FSX (released solely for the PC) with any game made for both PC and consoles - such a comparison is flawed. Now if FSX also had a release for the consoles (impossible as it simply can't translate into a console format at present) - you may have an argument, as its not you don't. If you want to compare it to something compare it to a game/simulation software released solely for the PCAlso its silly only considering sales figures for FSX from the USA, without any idea of the sales figures world-wide (especially from Europe).But 'mgh' knows best - right?Flight simulation software for PC can be considered a niche market - yes. BUT its a big niche market (as far niche markets go), and with any luck it will grow even bigger with time. Looking at this FS niche market - how much bigger has it gotten since the 90s? - Much bigger. Hopefully at some point in the future it won't even be considered a niche anymore. I'm hoping that will happen when a new steady GOOD FS product is launched (by whoever). However until a new successful sim is launched we may see some stagnation, but the demand for a good FS (combat and civil) will always be there. Another important thing to know about the FS niche market is that it is a GLOBAL Market, anybody with a reasonable PC system and an interest in aviation is a potential consumer.Peter, I thought 'mgh' might be a troll myself a few times. I still have my suspicions as to his exact motives, but not sure if he's a troll, 'Mr Argument' - he is; 'Capt. Nega Tivity' - yes; but I don't think he's a troll (yet) - could be wrong though. Arguing with him is largely pointless, 'mgh' is set in his views and will argue the same point over and over again forever if needed.

I have to agree actually, he's getting there though. He needs to stop ignoring things and posting false info that he knows are false or can be confirmed through a simple Google search though.

[mgh 89]

Flight simulation software for PC can be considered a niche market - yes.

Thank you. that was my original point - pity you had to make the revert to personal attacks though.

[Peter Clemenko 0]

Thank you. that was my original point - pity you had to make the revert to personal attacks though.

mgh, it helps to not lie about facts if you want to have people take you seriously and not mistake you for a troll. Yes it can be argued it's a niche, but it is a big niche, and a large enough one that you wind up sometimes forgetting it's a niche (like I did). Remember this however, if you want to be taken seriously, and not as a troll, get your facts straight when you are referencing something that can be easily confirmed with a Google search. This comes in even more true when you get the number from the top 10 list you are saying it's not on, even though that's your source for the number. One key play in a troll's play book is to intentionally spread wrong information. Also, you were raising alarm bells with me when you were trying to compare a cross platform release with a PC only release.Oh and read what I said above about NPD, it only tracks large chain stores, not mom and pop shops, or online retailers, or anything like that.

[mgh 89]

mgh , it helps to not lie about facts

It also helps to read what I actually said about FSX and Top 10 Lists before making serious accusations.

True, but according to NPD, the US sales of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 were 8.82 million in 2009 with world-wide sales of 11.82 million.http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100203a.htmlThe only reference I can find to FSX was in the corrected NPD figures for 2007 where FSX ranked 9th in the list of PC (not all) games with sales of 280 thousand. It's not clear if this is US only or worldwide.http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17129

I referenced the sources quite clearly as being for 2009 and 2007.

Given that Flight Simulator desn't even appear in the top 10 PC games sales

Note that I said "dsn't appear" not "hasn't appeared." Flight Simulator doesn't appear in the 2009 top 10 list of PC games which are: 01. The Sims 3 (Electronic Arts)02. World Of Warcraft: Wrath Of The Lich King (Activision)03. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe (Electronic Arts)04. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest (Activision)05. Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Activision)06. World Of Warcraft (Activision)07. The Sims 3: World Adventures (Electronic Arts)08. Spore (Electronic Arts)09. Dragon Age: Origins (Electronic Arts)10. Empire: Total War (Sega) http://www.edge-online.com/news/npd-2009%E...onsole-pc-gamesWould you care to apologise for calling me a liar?

[Peter Clemenko 0]

It also helps to read what I actually said about FSX and Top 10 Lists before making serious accusations.I referenced the sources quite clearly as being for 2009 and 2007.Note that I said "dsn't appear" not "hasn't appeared." Flight Simulator doesn't appear in the 2009 top 10 list of PC games which are: 01. The Sims 3 (Electronic Arts)02. World Of Warcraft: Wrath Of The Lich King (Activision)03. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe (Electronic Arts)04. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest (Activision)05. Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (Activision)06. World Of Warcraft (Activision)07. The Sims 3: World Adventures (Electronic Arts)08. Spore (Electronic Arts)09. Dragon Age: Origins (Electronic Arts)10. Empire: Total War (Sega) http://www.edge-online.com/news/npd-2009%E...onsole-pc-gamesWould you care to apologise for calling me a liar?

You quoted the 2007 numbers from the 2007 top 10 list and you try to pull the 2009 top 10 list? I'm not apologizing if you really are gonna pull that crap. Especially when you don't even mention the 2009 top 10 list until now.If you want to minimize confusion, make it absolutely clear, this is how communications break down. I strongly suggest pointing out you are referring to current top 10 lists when you are talking about not appearing. The way you worded it originally made it appear that you were not referring to the fact that you are talking about current lists.Finally one more note: NPD top 10s are not going to list an older game like FSX that often. WoW is a rare exception strictly because of the fact that it's the most popular MMO out there. Look at the rest of that list, and note that only The Sims 2 is on there that is kind of old, and that was most likely spiked by the fact that The Sims 3 came out in 2009.

[momtchil 32]

Thank you. that was my original point - pity you had to make the revert to personal attacks though.

No personal attacks - only facts based on my experience arguing with you in the past, and what I've seen from you in this thread and others. I did try to point out that I think you're not a troll after all, I am sorry if I offended you in the process.However you're proving my point all over again, now you're going to drag the discussion into other small insignificant areas and try to twist people's words (more specifically Peter's in this case). Do you like arguing this much? A lot of your posts seem discretely targeted to spark a reaction in others and once someone catches - its on......... I do not care for that at all and every time someone points that out to you, you bring forth the 'personal attacks' card - sheesh.............. I mean no offense just saying things how I see them.It would be nice to have a normal discussion with you for once as you appear pretty knowledgeable, but I do not think that is possible - our points of view and attitudes seem to differ far too much.