This will assuredly start a row- but I'm curious as to how the Cockpit & Systems development costs compare with the exterior model and various paint jobs of a current "serious" type airliner or twin GA.I for one NEVER look at the outside- I leave walkarounds to my "crew". Guess I'm not an airplane watcher. I'd rather be flying- sitting in the left seat- not floating around like an angel looking down at the strange big bird!Wouldn't it be nice if you could buy one or t'other or both. Any others for whom exteriors are unnecessary- just soaking up HD space? Might performance even improve?Alex Reid

If you are using FSX it

If you are using FSX it

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Hi Danny- I guess what I had in mind was lowering the price of some of the sophisticated add-on airplanes by either not developing exterior models- or offering an exterior model as a second "pay for" package. Saving memory isn't the goal- although that's also another good reason to market separate inside/outside views.....................

That could backfire and add-ons could become even more expensive. I'm just mentioning another possibility from your proposal - it is a business after all and companies might decide not to decrease their prices (or not to decrease them by much) while providing you a no-VC, no 3D model and charge extra (possibly considerably extra) for those in an add-on pack, under the pre-text that their simulation is so realistic etc....Just a 2D panel with no plane model or VC - Personally I wouldn't buy something like that. I want as realistic an FS plane to fly in, with all the systems modeled (if possible), and flight dynamics as close to the real world as possible - realism in FS is very important to me, but at the same time I also want a good dynamic VC and 3D plane model. That does add to the realism after all - its impossible to communicate cockpit ergonomics with just 2D panels (that's why commercial simulators largely consist of an accurate cockpit mock up) and it would be good to see the outside of the airplane and familiarize yourself with its aerodynamic design and landing gear, airframe, movable ailerons, flaps, APU systems, etc... and how they operate on the outside. This would be a requirement in the real word, even with simple GA planes.Providing FS planes with just 2D panels with no plane model or VC would be a step backwards in FS development from my point of view. I'm just politely disagreeing and do not mean to offend.Usually Flyers enjoy the sight of airplanes. So I don't think its accurate to split FS people into flyers and watchers, because both pilots and aviation enthusiasts like to watch airplanes. I haven't heard of a single pilot or flyer (real world or FS) who does not enjoy the sight of an airplane. I know I would be unhappy if all I was offered was flight dynamics and 2D panels.Also your thread title'Flyers vs Airplane Watchers' and

........I for one NEVER look at the outside- I leave walkarounds to my "crew". Guess I'm not an airplane watcher........

does have a hint of elitism that I don't much care for.

I guess that makes me a "watcher" when I'm out sightseeing. I cannot see much scenery from inside the aircraft, so I look around outside. Sometimes the airplane is in the way. But I'm also a flyer, because I cannot takeoff or land from outside. I must be in the cockpit.

That could backfire and add-ons could become even more expensive. I'm just mentioning another possibility from your proposal - it is a business after all and companies might decide not to decrease their prices (or not to decrease them by much) while providing you a no-VC, no 3D model and charge extra (possibly considerably extra) for those in an add-on pack, under the pre-text that their simulation is so realistic etc....Just a 2D panel with no plane model or VC - Personally I wouldn't buy something like that. I want as realistic an FS plane to fly in, with all the systems modeled (if possible), and flight dynamics as close to the real world as possible - realism in FS is very important to me, but at the same time I also want a good dynamic VC and 3D plane model. That does add to the realism after all - its impossible to communicate cockpit ergonomics with just 2D panels (that's why commercial simulators largely consist of an accurate cockpit mock up) and it would be good to see the outside of the airplane and familiarize yourself with its aerodynamic design and landing gear, airframe, movable ailerons, flaps, APU systems, etc... and how they operate on the outside. This would be a requirement in the real word, even with simple GA planes.Providing FS planes with just 2D panels with no plane model or VC would be a step backwards in FS development from my point of view. I'm just politely disagreeing and do not mean to offend.Usually Flyers enjoy the sight of airplanes. So I don't think its accurate to split FS people into flyers and watchers, because both pilots and aviation enthusiasts like to watch airplanes. I haven't heard of a single pilot or flyer (real world or FS) who does not enjoy the sight of an airplane. I know I would be unhappy if all I was offered was flight dynamics and 2D panels.Also your thread title'Flyers vs Airplane Watchers' and does have a hint of elitism that I don't much care for.

Sorry Momtchil- I didn't intend to sound elitist. My theme is that I try to use Flight Sim in the same way that realworld pilots use commercial simulators for training and proficiency maintenance. Users of these real simulators don't do simulated walkarounds- nor do they even see the outside of the "aircraft" which they are "flying". In fact, the real captain often never sees the outside of his airplane- boarding thru the jetway like the rest of us and leaving the walkaround to his first officer. Sure I enjoy the sight of OTHER airplanes but the flightdeck itself and the 145

------- I cannot see much scenery from inside the aircraft, so I look around outside. Sometimes the airplane is in the way. But I'm also a flyer, because I cannot takeoff or land from outside. I must be in the cockpit.

"-hot sauce": users of multiple monitors (via TH2Go or dual video cards) "fly" in an FS world considerably different than is seen with a single monitor. Commercial simulators display a triple wide scenery view. My objective is a similar world view. For me, I'm happy trying to "replicate" such a simulator on a basic budget. Less costly software would help.Here is my view- except it is actually 45" wide & only 26" from my eyes. I would encourage you to look into additional monitors- the 'way' you fly will change greatly.Alex Reid

"-hot sauce": users of multiple monitors (via TH2Go or dual video cards) "fly" in an FS world considerably different than is seen with a single monitor. Commercial simulators display a triple wide scenery view. My objective is a similar world view. For me, I'm happy trying to "replicate" such a simulator on a basic budget. Less costly software would help.Here is my view- except it is actually 45" wide & only 26" from my eyes. I would encourage you to look into additional monitors- the 'way' you fly will change greatly.Alex Reid[attachment=..................JPG

I could swear I've seen that specific '3 monitor view' image before, have you posted it previously elsewhere? It just looks so familiar. Sadly haven't got the 'dosh' to invest in multiple monitor set-ups (what little funds there are - its all being saved for flight training and qualifications). With a single monitor I do alright and I'm happy enough with it, especially in a good VC.Good luck with your 'triple wide scenery view' pursuit.

I could swear I've seen that specific '3 monitor view' image before, have you posted it previously elsewhere? It just looks so familiar. Sadly haven't got the 'dosh' to invest in multiple monitor set-ups (what little funds there are - its all being saved for flight training and qualifications). ---------

momtchil- The 'dosh' would be about C$125-175 total for a couple of used 17" LCDs and an older 2nd video card that's compatible with one's main GPU.(very simple to mix 'n' match different monitor makes and lcd/crt types. I used all CRTs originally, some 8 years ago- they are free today! )Don't think I've posted that particular pic before- possibly others similar.Alex Reid

even with two cheap 22'' monitors it already looks great.But as being said, I prefer also cockpit-sound-fde above anything else. Just upgraded my 742 with a posky model, since it was for free.Captains mostly dont see the outside, just briefly from the terminal, the FO does.. but we can be and do what we want.Pitty a virtual walk around is of no use..

Something tells me if this is done, we will have a Captain Sim situation on our hands more often. (release the exterior, and make you pay extra for the interior)

Something tells me if this is done, we will have a Captain Sim situation on our hands more often. (release the exterior, and make you pay extra for the interior)

Peter- real airplanes are sold as "basic aircraft plus options as desired". Our computers are built up in the same way. Why not sim airplanes?Strikes me this approach could get a sim product on the market much faster- at present we are seeing total development times stretching into years with the product not released for sale until all "options" are complete . Thus it might also accelerate the revenue stream for the developers- perhaps even produce increased revenue since the options offered might extend over a period of years. Boeing knows all about this marketing strategy! PMDG also did it (in a way) with their add-on 737-800/900.And last but not least, might be a bit easier on the "gotta have everything" simmer's wallet- initially! (known as spreading the pain over an extended time period!)Alex Reid

Peter- real airplanes are sold as "basic aircraft plus options as desired". Our computers are built up in the same way. Why not sim airplanes?Strikes me this approach could get a sim product on the market much faster- at present we are seeing total development times stretching into years with the product not released for sale until all "options" are complete . Thus it might also accelerate the revenue stream for the developers- perhaps even produce increased revenue since the options offered might extend over a period of years. Boeing knows all about this marketing strategy! PMDG also did it (in a way) with their add-on 737-800/900.And last but not least, might be a bit easier on the "gotta have everything" simmer's wallet- initially! (known as spreading the pain over an extended time period!)Alex Reid

Because it's inevitable that under that model, the aircraft will cost more for the same features it has now. Cost has always been the big thing preventing newer simmers from really getting in to it. It's in the best interests of the hobby to keep it as affordable as possible to prevent it from falling apart as the older members of the community leave or die. I hate to be a downer, but why do you think I've always stood for lowering the cost of addons in the first place. It's to attempt to get as much new blood in to the hobby as possible. The interest is there, I know it is, because I've seen it. I've seen Virtual Airlines ran by teenagers (I've actually been in one that was like that), and I've seen gamers playing flight sim on the side. But if the cost remains too high, that scares away the next generation.

Because it's inevitable that under that model, the aircraft will cost more for the same features it has now. Cost has always been the big thing preventing newer simmers from really getting in to it. It's in the best interests of the hobby to keep it as affordable as possible to prevent it from falling apart as the older members of the community leave or die. I hate to be a downer, but why do you think I've always stood for lowering the cost of addons in the first place. It's to attempt to get as much new blood in to the hobby as possible. The interest is there, I know it is, because I've seen it. I've seen Virtual Airlines ran by teenagers (I've actually been in one that was like that), and I've seen gamers playing flight sim on the side. But if the cost remains too high, that scares away the next generation.

Peter- I agree!!!! That's why releasing an addon airplane in sections can reduce the cost! I don't want or use any outside views of the airplane. All I use is the 2D cockpit. You are asking me to pay for your exterior views. Lower beginning cost = more new simmers.Those who want the extra exterior views should pay the additional cost.And in the process, the developers can speed up the introduction of new products.(Car dealer to customer- "whadiya mean you don't want the super big 1000 cu in. engine with the gee whiz 10 speed automatic tranny and three tone paint job and leather convertible top and gold plated wire wheels? We don't sell 'em any other way! We'll put you on the wait list. Only takes 2 1/2 years)Alex Reid.