I've recently been watching a great deal of You Tube footage of WW2 aircraft combat, and have been astounded not only by the crews, but also the aircraft.The condition in which some bombers made it all the way back to UK airfields is just ammazing! One in particular impressed me; that of a B17, not only missing it's entire rudder, but with only a tiny portion of the actual stabilzer left remaining. How on earth was that aircraft brought back AND safely landed???I know those aircraft had to be designed to absorb a great deal of damage, but surely, the above just about defies the laws of flight?I am so, so grateful to all those who went before me!

Wouldn't mind seeing the B17 myself. Could you post a link? Cheers,D

I've recently been watching a great deal of You Tube footage of WW2 aircraft combat, and have been astounded not only by the crews, but also the aircraft.The condition in which some bombers made it all the way back to UK airfields is just ammazing! One in particular impressed me; that of a B17, not only missing it's entire rudder, but with only a tiny portion of the actual stabilzer left remaining. How on earth was that aircraft brought back AND safely landed???I know those aircraft had to be designed to absorb a great deal of damage, but surely, the above just about defies the laws of flight?I am so, so grateful to all those who went before me!

I know, it is really amazing when you hear of the damage such aircraft took while still being able to fly. Even more amazing when you think about it, the age of many of the B-17 pilots was early 20's, and the flying skills many displayed were incredible. Regards,John

The B-17 is something of an exception where heavy bombers are concerned for its ability to take battle damage. Part of the reason for that is the fact that it is one of the few heavy bombers with a fuselage that is essentially circular in cross-section, albeit with an added deck from the cockpit back to the radio room window. As most people know, circular structures are to a large extent better able to take stress and less likely to transmit tear damage, as evidenced by the rounded appearance of most pressurised aircraft windows, and the circular lightening holes seen in most wing spars and ribs.Somewhat fortuitously, the B-17 was designed to be easy to fly for lengthy periods, because it was originally intended to be a maritime patrol aircraft with a mission to cover the shores of the USA and bomb enemy battleships, but as it turned out, it ended up being a formation bomber over Europe instead. However, those easy flight characteristic certainly helped when various bits would get shot off the things. What certainly also helped it, was the fact that it was found to wander a bit at high altitude in its original form of the shark tail early variants which lacked a rear gun position, so it was redesigned with a massive tailfin and dorsal fillet, in order to improve directional stability when bombing from high altitude in a thin atmosphere. Thus when large bits of the tail got shot off, it tended to simply fly like the earlier versions with the much smaller tail, rather than go completely out of control. Not for nothing was it nicknamed the Big-&@($* bird.If you look at the similarly-employed USAAF B-24; there was an aircraft which was notorious for not being able to take much battle damage at all, as well as a depressing tendency to explode when hit in the wings. Theoretically it was a better, more modern aircraft than the B-17, but in practical terms, it was nowhere near as battle-worthy as the Flying Fortress. Probably why the B-17 is such a legendary and well-loved aircraft, whereas hardly any B-24s survive today. Nevertheless, whatever those WW2 guys flew, you can't deny they had some guts and more than a little skill.Al

Wouldn't mind seeing the B17 myself. Could you post a link? Cheers,D

Dave, there's a huge number of B17 vids on You Tube. Just search "B17" and you'll see what I mean. The multipart vids are some of the best though.

Somewhat fortuitously, the B-17 was designed to be easy to fly for lengthy periods, because it was originally intended to be a maritime patrol aircraft with a mission to cover the shores of the USA and bomb enemy battleships, but as it turned out, it ended up being a formation bomber over Europe instead. However, those easy flight characteristic certainly helped when various bits would get shot off the things. What certainly also helped it, was the fact that it was found to wander a bit at high altitude in its original form of the shark tail early variants which lacked a rear gun position, so it was redesigned with a massive tailfin and dorsal fillet, in order to improve directional stability when bombing from high altitude in a thin atmosphere. Thus when large bits of the tail got shot off, it tended to simply fly like the earlier versions with the much smaller tail, rather than go completely out of control. Not for nothing was it nicknamed the Big-&@($* bird.Al

Fascinating...good stuff Al, thanks for sharing.I guess my grandfather--a B-24 pilot during the war--was lucky to make it out, eh? :(

The B-17 was an incredibly tough airplane. There are many stories of heavily damaged ones continuing to fly and returning their crews home. In one case a B-17 continued to fly with a ridiculous amount of heavy damage following a collision with an attacking Messerschmitt Bf 109 fighter! - Its no wonder she's called the B-17 Flying Fortress....Also there's the pilots from the time - very brave, creative and skilled flyers. It was a more hands-on approach back then, compared to now.

I guess my grandfather--a B-24 pilot during the war--was lucky to make it out, eh? :(

Not necessarily, there is absolutely no doubt that his skill and bravery will have played its part. You didn't get to be in the USAAF through luck, it took a lot of determination to make the cut, and I certainly don't envy him the job, as at any stage in the war it could be deadly business, whichever aircraft you were crewing.Nevertheless, a lot of it depends on when someone was in the conflict. In the early years of ETO USAAF operations there was even more danger to contend with: Navigational equipment wasn't as good, there were no H2X equipped aircraft or pathfinders, raids had less escort coverage, weather forecasting was more primitive and the raids themselves had less refined tactics. Later in the war, there was all that stuff and the Luftwaffe's fighter pilots were of nowhere near the quality that they had been in the earlier years, as evidenced by the fact that the Luftwaffe were even considering having a really bad dude Youth novices, fast-tracked through flight school, to fly the Heinkel He-162 Salamander and the Bachem Ba 349 Natter.That is not to belittle the efforts of those who served later, because it was certainly still no picnic to fly on a bombing raid at any date in WW2. It was often accepted that there would be as much as ten percent attrition just from collisions between friendly bombers over the UK whilst the raids were forming up. But as far as the danger of fighter defences were concerned, there are instances of USAAF bomber crews flying 25 missions without even seeing a single enemy fighter in the closing stages of the war in Europe, although that in itself was in large part owing to the sacrifices of the earlier crews, which had hammered the German synthetic fuel industry. Of course they still had the flak to dice with when the fighters were depleted, and that was more dangerous than most people give it credit for.I'm very interested in the period, and always like to see those old warbirds at airshows and in museums, but I am glad I didn't have to endure what those guys (on both sides) had to, as it must have been truly horrendous.Al

... as it must have been truly horrendous.Al

And you know what Al, I sometimes wonder if it will ever end (at least in our lifetime) and, if any nation ever really learns from the past. My son has just returned, unharmed thank God, from what I think and HOPE was his last posing in Afganistan.

Have fun with this one: http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?...yContent=179379As far as war ending. Humanity will probably only stop fighting itself on two conditions:1. We all die off.2. What pretty much every scifi movie has which is aliens come and invade and everyone says "we have bigger priorities than our minor differences".I think I'll quote Einstein on this one when I say “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”

I remember reading a story about a B-52 making it back after loosing most of it's vertical stabilizer in severe turbulence. To make it back the crew put the gear down and opened the outer most spoilers. It's worth a look too."If it ain't Boeing...."