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Guest GZR_Frenchy

Question 1: Why are the rivers blue?

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Why does MS continue to show rivers in the same blue hues as the ocean? :-hmmm Haven't they ever flown into St. Louis and seen the muddy brown Missouri and Mississippi rivers? Lakes, too, should be brown or greenish-brown. If MS could make the river water a different color than the ocean then we'd be even closer to As Real As It Gets!Steve Lewis, KCLE

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Well, technically, its posible to change the river colors...but it would involve some landclass (waterclass) editing...so if you wanted you could change the river on your area to have different colors (as theres like what, a million different water colors...ok..16 or so...)I'm thinking about changing the Fraser River up here in British Columbia....as right now its depected as this nice blue river....where really, its just as muddy and ugly as the Mississippi :)

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So, you think maybe it's a Landclass issue? That's interesting. I'll head over to FSGenesis' forum and ask the question. Would be nice if all of the rivers were some shade of brown/greenish-brown.Steve

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With all due respect I don't think the FS team are going to lose any sleep over the river colours. Believe it or not they may not even have flown into St Louis! and like myself they may not have known until you informed us that it is a muddy brown. I am sure they have many other things that they would like to address and as such I would imagine that it is a fairly low priority if indeed it is one at all.I am sick of people posting about bugs and improvements they reckon could be made. Why not offer your services to MS and join their team to enhance FS for all of us? That is if you know better and can implement your changes whilst at the same time not affecting the games performance. If not then at least try to do what flightsim was made to do and enjoy the simulation of flight.Yours Respectfully,markyboy.

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Dear Markyboy, What in the H*ll is your problem????? "I am sick of people posting about bugs and improvements they reckon could be made. Why not offer your services to MS and join their team to enhance FS for all of us? That is if you know better and can implement your changes whilst at the same time not affecting the games performance. If not then at least try to do what flightsim was made to do and enjoy the simulation of flight."I was ONLY asking a question if we could change the colors ourselves. I certainly WAS NOT issuing a BUG Report or blasting MS.Jeez.. Myself, I'm personally SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO FLAME ANYONE WHO JUST ASKS A QUESTION. GET LOST.

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>I am sick of people posting about bugs and improvements they>reckon could be made. .. and I am sick of people like you who are clearly unable to tell difference between those few flaming posts and those that express legitimate concerns using respectful language. And, btw, I agree with Steve that rivers, inland waters in FS are poorly done and contrary to other requests this one could probably be easily fixed - perhaps if Microsfot knew that enough people cared. But they will never know if people keep quiet.And ... waters of San Francisco Bay are all brown-green, contrary to what some may believe.Michael J.http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

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>>And ... waters of San Francisco Bay are all brown-green,>contrary to what some may believe.>And the waters of Utah/Arizona's Lake Powell can be some of the most beautiful shades of "blue" possible!L.Adamson

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Howdy:aside from the sparring, this is an interesting thread ;-)My recent uploads of the Canadian Rockies included some waterclass updates and I agree that it makes a big difference in the appearance of a lake or river, particularly with the many different water hues available in FS9.I don't agree with Michael's sugestion that this could be easily fixed by MS. As Scooby points out, *manual* waterclass replacements by users are quite easy to do but the FS design team had to use readily available digital landuse and bathymetry (water depth) data to generate the worldwide set of land and waterclass. I don't know of any global database that includes a classification of water colors. The FS graduated ocean colors in the tropical areas and elsewhere are probably based on bathymetry data but for rivers and inlets it's mostly sediment content that determines the real-world hue.Consider the geographical scope of FS: to the best of my knowledge there's no other product out there that combines global coverage with a 1.2 x 1.2 kilometer resolution (of the land- and waterclass tiles). The only way this can be done for a $50 product is by using existing databases and automated data translators. Has MS used the most accurate/detailed available data? Most probably not because of either expensive licensing fees or, more likely, incompatible data formats (there are thousands of different formats for describing and storing geographical data). I'm sure that even with the best of intentions there was very limited opportunity for the FS designers to manually enhance specific area. After all, this is a Flight Simulator, not a Planet Simulator ;-) I am in awe about the level of detail that this game(!) provides out of the box and I am very grateful to the developers that they provide us with the opportunity to manually add to or correct almost any aspect of FS. So, with a big thank-you to the FS design team AND a big thank-you to the developers of (freeware) add-on design utilities, let's get going on some waterclass replacements of our own!!!Now, back to my current FS project...Cheers, Holger

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Yet the validity of Steve's original questionstill stands. There maybe blue rivers, but from the air most seem brown to me.Peter Sydney Australia

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I see some four hours have passed since your reply to my post. I hope now you have collected your toys back up and put them back in the pram. Me Flaming? Certainly not. Just making a reply to what I considered a pretty dumb post. Did I tell you to get lost? No. Are you the one being disrespectful? Yes.I refer you to the title of your post. You really think its the number one question regards Flightsim? I think not. And to quote you "....Haven't they ever flown into St. Louis and seen the muddy brown Missouri and Mississippi rivers?...."I didn't realize that was something everyone else has done!If the worst thing in the world you got to worry about is the colour of a river in flightsim then I want to come and live your life.Once Again Respectfully,markyboy.

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.......... to the FS design team AND a big thank-you to the developers of (freeware) add-on design utilities"I second that with the greatest enthusiasm and would like to mention briefly the wonderful flight just completed by me in Alberta from Banff to Jasper in Geoff Applegate's flawless Debonair. A few years ago my wife and I spent part of our 25th wedding anniversary touring the National Park at ground level in beautiful weather conditions, an experience we will both never forget. To be able to recreate that trip from altitude with Holger Sandmann's magnificent new terrain elevation mesh and scenery enhancements has left me speechless, well almost ;) Normally, when I try to show my wife some of the delights offered by this sim her attention span lasts barely five minutes. This flight had her glued to the screen for well over half an hour!!Some of us don't appreciate enough just how lucky we are when people like Geoff, Holger, Bill and Lynn, to mention but a few, provide such exquisite enhancements for the sim and by so doing make our hobby such an enjoyable and fulfilling experience. But let's not forget the creators of the simulator who also have demonstrated a great love and passion, yet often receive brickbats for all their trouble and dedicated effort instead of the praise which is so richly deserved.Mike :-wave

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>http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/46763.jpg>>>Pull pin, point at the base of the fire and pull handle>>>Hey Holger,>> whatcha buildin? i love the mesh and scenery you just>released.>>>joeGODDA* !! That's some funny Sh**. :) Thank you for making my night.BobbyP.S. Markyboy...about as subtle as a brick. I'm still trying to figure out what your post had to do with his question?? And Steve...Loosen the thong bud. ;) It' wound a little tight Lol.

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Just for a point of information, the Mississippi River was brown in FS 98. I don't know about any other rivers. It doesn't detract that much for me but I wonder why they went backwards.

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Um, actually, there are no "dumb" post (questions), only dumb (stupid) answers. I thought it was a decent question.Rivers = generally fresh water. Oceans = generally (always) salt water.Hmmm. I think that somebody *could* have figured out the difference instead of just plain water texture. When designing the scenery, one could just designate the water texture "river-winter" or "ocean-carribean" or "river-east" (put unpleaseant thought here, although, the East River has been really cleaned up).You get the idea.It's not a land class thing, it's a basic scenery design thing. Somebody drew a line marking a river. Just define it appropriately.I feel better now that I kept my log-in from expiring.Thanks!BChttp://jdtllc.com/images/RCsupporter.jpg

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Hey, all you sewage lovers, how about this quick fix:New Orleans in FS9 with default water textures (no water effects)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/46787.jpgsame location, with quick fixhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/46788.jpgThis is the Fraser River, east of Vancouver, with same quick fix (and the new Lyons' water effects)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/46789.jpgHow did I do this? Well, I fired up trusty old MS TMFViewer and checked out the default global waterclass file (worldwc.bgl, in FS9SceneryBASEScenery). It does look like most of the land areas are classified as either Class 1 (Shallow Inland Water-Blue) or Class 2 (Deep Inland Water-Blue), with the latter covering almost all rivers and large lakes. In addition, there are a few areas classified as 5 (Non Perennial Inland Water-Blue) and some of the mixed-water inlets, like the lower Fraser River, as Class 3 (Ocean Inlets-Blue). Here's how the Mississippi Delta area looks like (light blue = 1, dark blue = 2, orange = 5; the rest are ocean colors, actually many more than the pink and dark red suggests) http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/46790.jpgPretty rough classification, indeed, given that there are 12 different lake/river/inlet textures and about 45 more ocean textures available (any water body can have any water class; I used some of the tropical ocean water classes for my glacial lakes because they most closely resemble the turquoise hues). The waterclass textures reside in FS9SceneryWorldtexture, e.g. 001b2wa1.bmp for Class 1, 002b2wa1.bmp for Class 2, etc. (None of this is new knowledge, as a quick search for 'waterclass' in the forums or a look at the MS FS2002 Terrain SDK docs would reveal). I knew from my design work that Class 7 (Shallow Inland Water?Brown) is the brownest color around. All I did was to rename 002b2wa1.bmp to 002b2wa1.bmp.org, make a copy of 007b2wa1.bmp and rename that to 002b2wa1.bmp (and the same with 001b2wa1.bmp, 003b2wa1.bmp, and/or 005b2wa1.bmp). That's all! Do this at your own risk and don't delete any original files!!!One more observation: different water classes don't blend well, it seems. Where brown and blue waters meet you'll see some strange rings that look like oil spills. Try it out and see for yourself.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/46795.jpgObviously, this global fix will change inland water colors everywhere (depending on which of the four you change); it's up to you.Cheers, HolgerP.S. Mike, thank you very much for the kind words about my Canadian Rockies' file, and say hi to your wife for me; nice to get some female endorsement ;-)

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Neat trick, Holger.You know, the "strange" stuff where the river meets the ocean actually looks really realistic to me. It looks like sediment outflow.

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Hi BC:"I feel better now that I kept my log-in from expiring." LMAO - just love that dry humor :-xxrotflmao "Somebody drew a line marking a river." That's just the point - no one (at MS, at least) drew a line to make a river, with some (very few) exceptions in those more detailed/photoreal metropolitan areas. All the basic linework, default terrain mesh, and landclass/waterclass data are derived from existing GIS databases; all the FS designers did (and, believe, me that "all" means a huge amount of headaches) is to translate these data into the FS world by means of automated utilities. I'm sure there was some level of quality check *before* the final run of these utilities but once they were done, most if not all problems that were found would have had to be fixed manually. You can imagine that task to be quite difficult given a playground the size of our blue (hah!) planet.So, the issue IS a waterclass problem (or, rather, the lack of existing global data of water colors), not a scenery design problem.Cheers, Holger

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Jimmy, I might agree (though the effect is stronger than the screenshot suggests), except that in this particular image the water body to the right is Harrison Lake and the Harrison River leaves the lake to join the Fraser River. Obviously then, the blending could be taken care of by applying the same quick fix to the lake's water texture class.Another point: while this fix works globally, the waterclass can be easily overridden by any separate waterclass file installed with a higher priority in the scenery library.Cheers, Holger

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