MD11 Take Off from TNCM

[walfob 10]

I'm trying to take off from Princess Juliana Intl (TNCM)to make a return journey to Amsterdam Schipol but don't manage to lift off the runway before crashing into the sea. I'm using a KLM MD11 real world air route so assume that take off is possible. I know the runway is only 7153 feet long but I've even tried 1/3rd passengers and no extra cargo on the Load Manager. I'm using 109,000kg fuel. The route distance is about 4650 miles.Does anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?ThanksBernard Walford

[PGBosak 4]

Does anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?

Hi,you should use TOPCAT for take -off calculation:http://www.topcatsim.com/fantastic tool which works perfectly with PMDG MD-11; 747-400, DA Fokker 70/100, Level-D etc,.. regards

[JAT 185]

Not sure how much fuel you need,but what about the trim and flaps settings.Nebojsa

[SMaus 1]

First of all - why would you use such a huge amount of fuel for an 8 or 8.5 hour flight with 1/3 passengers and no additional cargo? With 7100 feet of runway I would almost expect to end up in the harbour basin...What was the ZFW? What was your flap setting? Did you use derated takeoff? Did you take off with packs on or off or even anti-ice? What about your headwind component during takeoff? What was the outside temperature? Did you check your trim setting?

[Auduns 0]

I'm trying to take off from Princess Juliana Intl (TNCM)to make a return journey to Amsterdam Schipol but don't manage to lift off the runway before crashing into the sea. I'm using a KLM MD11 real world air route so assume that take off is possible. I know the runway is only 7153 feet long but I've even tried 1/3rd passengers and no extra cargo on the Load Manager. I'm using 109,000kg fuel. The route distance is about 4650 miles.Does anyone have any idea what I might be doing wrong?ThanksBernard Walford

Actually if I'm not completely wrong this route is flown with a little stopover on one of the nearby islands because of the short runway at TNCM, so basically they will fly with just a few tonnes of fuel to the next island and tank up there for the long haul home. I don't remember the stopover but believe the flight is like this EHAM-TNCM-(short hop to not recalled airport)-EHAM.Anyway, it is possible to take off with a light aircraft and enough fuel for the direct flight, I have done it couple of times, but you need to work out the optimum fuel level, and the best flap setting (not the highest). For that you need either TopCat (very good tool) or find some tables telling you the optimum flap with regards to your weight.

[fumap 0]

Actually if I'm not completely wrong this route is flown with a little stopover on one of the nearby islands because of the short runway at TNCM, so basically they will fly with just a few tonnes of fuel to the next island and tank up there for the long haul home. I don't remember the stopover but believe the flight is like this EHAM-TNCM-(short hop to not recalled airport)-EHAM.Anyway, it is possible to take off with a light aircraft and enough fuel for the direct flight, I have done it couple of times, but you need to work out the optimum fuel level, and the best flap setting (not the highest). For that you need either TopCat (very good tool) or find some tables telling you the optimum flap with regards to your weight.

If i remember correctly they do a stopover at TNCC - Curacao before returning to EHAM...So they will arrive with a fuel empty plane from EHAM, load only few tons of fuel, flight to TNCC ( 11300 feet rwy...that's good), refuel and then start the long journey to Schipol...A 7000 feet runway is too short for a full-load MD-11...also with a perfectly trimmed airplane with exact fuel figure you will never manage to takeoff on this short runway...I have done the TNCM-TNCC route some times with the MD-11, and i used a medium/high payload with 30000kg of fuel, or something like that. Cheers,

[walfob 10]

Thanks all for your prompt and very useful responses. I did wonder if a short hop was made to a nearby location in order to tank up for the long haul to EHAM from a longer runway, but the routes available from Flightaware and/or IVAO seem to indicate direct flights, similar to those shown to other european destinations from TNCM. I used 1/3 passengers and no extra cargo simply to see if it was possible to lift off from 7150 feet after unsuccessfully trying a heavier aircraft of 2/3 passengers and adding more cargo. I have tended to use the parameters from the MD11 tutorial - Flex 54, Flaps 22 degrees. With 109,000kg fuel ZfW was 147.75 and STAB Trim 6.5. V2 was 176. I used an OAT of 25C. I'll try Topcatsim for a different approach. RegardsBernard Walford

[fumap 0]

Thanks all for your prompt and very useful responses. I did wonder if a short hop was made to a nearby location in order to tank up for the long haul to EHAM from a longer runway, but the routes available from Flightaware and/or IVAO seem to indicate direct flights, similar to those shown to other european destinations from TNCM. I used 1/3 passengers and no extra cargo simply to see if it was possible to lift off from 7150 feet after unsuccessfully trying a heavier aircraft of 2/3 passengers and adding more cargo. I have tended to use the parameters from the MD11 tutorial - Flex 54, Flaps 22 degrees. With 109,000kg fuel ZfW was 147.75 and STAB Trim 6.5. V2 was 176. I used an OAT of 25C. I'll try Topcatsim for a different approach. RegardsBernard Walford

http://it.flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM785KLM does as i said, EHAM-TNCM-TNCC-EHAM...both for the 747s and for the MD11...no way a 747 or MD11 full load can takeoff with so much fuel onboard...instead of them, Air France does direct flights between TNCM and LFPG:http://it.flightaware.com/live/flight/AFR3515Air France uses A340-300...and the trip between TNCM and Paris is shorter than the trip between TNCM and Schipol.Watch here the airport planning document for MD11: http://www.md-11.org/iac/FC.pdf (it's fully legal to post it as it's in public access in the famous md-11.org website...)As we know, KLM uses GE engines on its MD11 fleet. For example, i set TOPCAT for a medium-high payload, these are the values:TNCM-EHAM : 4040NMALTN: EHRD, EBBRZFW: 169594 kgFUEL: 73800kg (74000 corrected)TOW: 243194 kgNow, using the airport planning document, page 51 (GE engines, +20C, PACKS OFF, NO WIND) a TOW of 250 tons requires an 8500 feet runway...It's impossible to lift off a medium-high load MD11 from TNCM runway...(TNCM has a 7550 feet rwy)Probably, an A340 fueled for LFPG can takeoff, but a MD11 isn't the same, it requires more fuel and more runway...Cheers,

[SMaus 1]

I have tended to use the parameters from the MD11 tutorial - Flex 54, Flaps 22 degrees. With 109,000kg fuel ZfW was 147.75 and STAB Trim 6.5. V2 was 176. I used an OAT of 25C. I'll try Topcatsim for a different approach.

If you have a very short runway, no matter if this flight is performed in real world, you shouldn't reduce your takeoff power on top of the problems you have with your takeoff weight anyway. You should do anything to get as much power as possible from your engines. This is certainly not the case with an assumed temperature of 54 degrees.

[fumap 0]

If you have a very short runway, no matter if this flight is performed in real world, you shouldn't reduce your takeoff power on top of the problems you have with your takeoff weight anyway. You should do anything to get as much power as possible from your engines. This is certainly not the case with an assumed temperature of 54 degrees.

That's for sure, a full power TO with 25 FLAPS and packs/bleed air OFF will give you all the power available...Cheers,

[KCA9304 0]

That's for sure, a full power TO with 25 FLAPS and packs/bleed air OFF will give you all the power available...Cheers,

There's one more setting possible, Flaps 28, if you have the Deflected Aileron option.Never had to use it at TNCM, cause all return flights to SPL from there were routed via TNCA, TNCB, TNCC and even TJSJ years ago, with much longer runways, to permit taking optimum commercial load and required fuel uplift for the trip back.Regards,Harry

[fumap 0]

There's one more setting possible, Flaps 28, if you have the Deflected Aileron option.Never had to use it at TNCM, cause all return flights to SPL from there were routed via TNCA, TNCB, TNCC and even TJSJ years ago, with much longer runways, to permit taking optimum commercial load and required fuel uplift for the trip back.Regards,Harry

Never heard of flaps 28...i learn everyday...I said 25 because a bunch of airlines use this setting...first of all, FedEx...Cheers,

[FLEX1978 373]

Never heard of flaps 28...i learn everyday...I said 25 because a bunch of airlines use this setting...first of all, FedEx...Cheers,

Fedex & UPS stopped using deflected Ailerons because the maintenance was too expensive, so it's flap 25 is the highest option.OP - As others have pointed out, your fuel and FLEX calculations are way off. I've flown direct TNCM - EGSS a number of times over the years direct, each time it's been TOGA thrust on T/O I wish PMDG would fix the 62K thrust issue.Here's some performance data for a flight today from TNCM - EHAM using real weather.Packs/Anti Ice off 72200kg of fuel (Freighter)TAKE-OFF TNCM/SXM RWY 10 TORA 7152FT UPS MCDONNELL DOUGLAS MD-11F CF6-80C2D1FST MAARTEN/PRINCESS JULIANA TEMP +27C QNH 1019 WIND 110/07 (06KT HW)------------------ CONDITIONS ------------------- ** FLAPS 25 ** NORM T/O ** DRY ** ** AIR COND PACKS OFF ** ANTI ICE OFF ** ASSUMED TAKE-OFF WEIGHT 235304 KG ------------------ FULL THRUST ------------------- +27C 236878 FIELD 146-147 157 167 76FT 110.9%---------------- REDUCED THRUST -----------------//+30C 235930 FIELD 146 157 167 10FT 110.9% +31C NOT AUTH +32C NOT AUTH***************************************************DO NOT EXCEED MAX STRUCT TAKE-OFF WGHT OF 285990 KG***************************************************------------------ ENGINE OUT -------------------IMMEDIATELY TURN RIGHT HDG 180. AT D10.0 PJM VOR(D113.0) RT PJM AND HOLD (308/L)---------------------- END -----------------------

[vololiberista 205]

If you want to take off at AUW try flying the VC10 That can take off from Cuzco SPZO in under 7,000ft!!!!! Bear in mind this airport is at 10,859ft!!!!!!!!! (not sea level!!)vololiberista

[JOR 0]

SOP KLM is on St Maarten to Boniare with full trust (low on flaps):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HkVJQW0vf0 This is a low fuel and brakes on T/O.John