Becoming an airline pilot.

[aceridgey 330]

Just follow your dreams!TBH university was the best thing to ever happen to me, My life just simply would not be the same,, if you can do uni first DO IT :D

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

Ross,I am a 20-year captain for a large regional airline in the US. I may sound a bit negative in my response here, but I believe somebody has to play devil's advocate in any situation. I want to give you some things to think about as you consider a flying career.I fly with a LOT of first officers who are just beginning their airline careers. Almost without exception, they were all flight instructors. Many of them attended an aviation university such as Embry-Riddle while others went to a traditional college and attended a good flight school such as the Delta Connection Academy or Flight Safety. Some don't even have a college degree. This is rare but most airlines don't require it. However, I DO recommend getting a degree, namely something you can fall back on should you experience setbacks in obtaining that coveted flying job.Nearly all the first officers I fly with are in massive debt for their college and/or flight training. I can't recall flying with a first officer in the past few years who wasn't $50,000 to $80,000 AND MORE in debt for their flight education. All that debt to get a job starting at $22,000 a year! I flew with one first officer recently who had to pick and choose which bills he was going to pay and which ones he wasn't. He said that creditors were hounding him all the time. He was living mostly on peanut butter and jelly sandwiches! That's very stressful. My #2 recommendation to ANYONE wanting to become a pilot is NOT to go into debt to do it but to pay for it as they go (I'll tell you my #1 recommendation in a minute)! That's very hard to do these days with flight training being as expensive as it is. I never went into debt for my flight training. I paid for it as I did it. It probably took me a little longer than many, but it was an awesome feeling NOT to be in debt when I started this job in 1991 at $14,000 a year! Start saving your money now. If your parents are paying for it, fly as much as you can.CAL757 suggested the military route. I would also strongly recommend that. However, it is becoming increasingly more difficult to get into the military as a pilot because the military simply isn't training as many pilots as they used to. The military is using more and more unmanned aircraft and pilot slots are becoming increasingly hard to get. I don't know how it works in the UK but I imagine it's not unlike here in the US. If you want to go the military route I would STRONLY suggest making top grades now and trying to get into whatever the top military academy is in the UK. That is a sure way to get into an airline job, although a bit later than those who go the civilian route. The best part is that you don't go into massive debt but instead GET PAID to go through flight training!Now for my #1 recommendation. BECOME A DOCTOR OR LAWYER AND BUY AND FLY YOUR OWN AIRPLANE!!! There's nothing like being self-employed and flying when and where you want to! If you STILL want to be an airline pilot, just be aware that it ISN'T an easy life. You will be flying when your kids have important events in their lives. You will miss birthdays, anniversaries, etc. You'll fly when you don't feel like it. Depending on who you fly for you may be pressured to fly when you're sick. You may be on reserve (on call) in a base that you don't live near, spending hours and days sitting in a crash pad with other pilots while waiting to do a short round trip to some podunk little town. You could be on reserve for years as I have seen with many pilots at my own airline.You may ask me if I would do it all over again. Absolutely! I would do some things differently but not much different. 9/11 had a profound impact on my career and is the main reason I am still flying for a regional airline. There is a worldwide pilot shortage coming and many say it is already here. For now, study hard and make good grades in school. Get that PPL as soon as you can and follow it up with your Instrument rating, Commercial License, multiengine ratings and Instructor ratings, namely the multi-engine instructor ratings. If go the civilian route, multi-engine time and experience is a MUST! Single engine time will build your total time but airlines want to see that multi time!Hope I haven't been too much of a killjoy here. Just want you to be aware of what you're planning to get into. Best of luck in your endeavors!Terry Swindle

That was well said Terry and you bring up a lot of good points, at least for people here in the US.I have a friend who got on a few years ago with American Eagle and is now flying ATR's and is based out of DFW. Anyway, to make a long story short, his experience is much like what you described. He's only making somewhere around $24,000 a year and has to rent an apartment with two other room mates to make ends meet, as well as struggling to pay all his bills. He's often told me that he's even considered getting a part time job either instructing or maybe even working part time in retail. To make matters worse, he also racked up around $60,000 of expenses to get his training, which he told me frankly he has no idea how he will ever pay off amking the money he's making.I asked him, well considering all of that, was it worth it since you love flying? His response was that while he does love to fly, the fact that the airline business is so tough these days and the pay is so bad, he really wishes he had taken a different career path. Even if he didn't have all the expense hanging over him, its really tough to get by on the salaries the US carriers pay when you first start out.When I was younger, I had originally wanted to become a military pilot with hopes of getting into test flying which I could parley into a career as an astronaut. I started my flight training very young, 14 yrs old, thanks to the help of my grandparents who financed my lessons, was in the Civil Air Patrol, Jr. ROTC, etc. all with hopes of taking that career path. When I started college, I enrolled in AFROTC, and then learned that with my corrected vision getting a pilot slot upon gradutation would be almost next to impossible after the AF Academy guys get first dibs, then ROTC, etc. Basically aside from having to be top notch in class, you need to be almost a perfect physical specimen before the military will comment big buck to train you and select you for pilot training, at least thats how it is in the US. Foreign military services might be differnt, but in the US getting into the military to be a pilot requires a lot of things to go right for you when it comes to you academic ability as well as physical condition. As wel as the fact that what used to be a 7 year commitment, is now 10 years.After that I considered a path to the airlines, but having spent some time talking to people in the industry it just seemed like it wouldn't be worth it since they made it out to be not as exciting and interesting as you would think. One fellow I spent some time with compared his job to flying a Groundhound Bus around the country for very little pay. Like what Terry said, he told me as much, that I would probably be better off in the long run going into a career field that you can actually make some money in and then do your flying privately.I know its probably a lot to think about at your age and you shouldn't look at my post or Terry's post as a downer, but you really need to understand what your getting into before you dig yourself deep into debt if you don't or can't take the military route. That's not to say that you wouldn't enjoy a career as a commercial pilot, but I would dare say that its not as glamorous and enjoyable as you may think. I can see how at a young age it would be tempting to want to be an airline pilot, especially if you enjoy flying aroung the world in the sim using PMDG's great products, but there's a lot to consider. At least your still young and not all these decisions need to be made today or tomorrow. Continue with your lessons and see how you progress. You never know, by the time you get your PPL and start your instrument training, you might not have the interest or fortitude to continue your training any further.Sean Campbell

[Tracon 10]

Or go to america and go to emby riddle (the best aviation college)

Not true, I went there. You can get equal flight training at a few others for half the price.

[Valcor 9]

Good thorough run down of the good/bad of the profession and the way to get there on this site.http://thetruthabouttheprofession.weebly.com/index.htmlI would also strongly cast my vote behind getting the grades necessary to get into a good university, then graduate school, then good career and BUY YOUR OWN!

[atrdriver 7]

Not true, I went there. You can get equal flight training at a few others for half the price.

Not to rip on the Embry-Riddle guys, but I have flown with many Riddle grads. I haven't flown with one yet that impressed me any more than a guy who got his training through a good non-college flight school. Don't get me wrong...Embry-Riddle turns out good pilots, but a Riddle flight education doesn't make a guy the next Chuck Yeager! The best "natural-born" pilots I have flown with are the guys who had a passion for airplanes from a young age. One of the things that younger folks have these days that I didn't is PC simulation. The closest I got to something like that (with the exception of having grown up around airplanes) was radio-controlled planes, which I still enjoy.By the way, thanks for the back up Sean. I was expecting flaming arrows over my post. I was simply telling the truth! Who's your Eagle buddy in DFW? If he's done any flying in Miami, I may have flown with him. I've been on the ATR for my whole 20 year Eagle career. Stayed in Miami post 9/11 and waited for ERJs to be based here, which happened in January. I fly my last trip in the ATR on April 7th, then it's off to DFW for 6 "glorious" weeks of ERJ training! With more than 12,000 hours in the ATR, I'm ready for the change!Terry

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

By the way, thanks for the back up Sean. I was expecting flaming arrows over my post. I was simply telling the truth! Who's your Eagle buddy in DFW? If he's done any flying in Miami, I may have flown with him. I've been on the ATR for my whole 20 year Eagle career. Stayed in Miami post 9/11 and waited for ERJs to be based here, which happened in January. I fly my last trip in the ATR on April 7th, then it's off to DFW for 6 "glorious" weeks of ERJ training! With more than 12,000 hours in the ATR, I'm ready for the change!Terry

I was expecting some flaming arrows from your post as well, but it is what it is. Sometimes things like that need to be said, otherwise you paint a picture that is too rosey. If I was that age still and had FSX/FS9 and the choice of advanced PMDG birds to fly around it would be very easy to get enamoured with flying airliners in the computer sim and think "wow, this is a lot of fun, I want to become an airline pilot." While there is nothing wrong with that since we all have to become interested and passionate about things somehow, its also important to hear the downside of things as well. Not to spoil the fun or interest of the person who is inquiring, but its only fair for them to hear both the pros and cons.As for as my buddy, I will send you a PM with his name since I am not sure he wouldn't want his name put out here on an internet forum. As far as I know, he has always been at DFW and if I remember correctly, although I maybe wrong, he may have been flying the Saab 340 years ago when he first started, but is now in the ATR. Frankly, if I was him I would love to be based out of KMIA since that area is probably my favorite place to be in the US. I vacation in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale a few times a year and would love to move, but am stuck in Dallas due to my girlfriend having a job she can't say no to. Since your based in MIA does that take you to San Juan or St. Maarten, or are those route only for jets? For me that would be a dream route to fly in real life. Although I would probably get sick of it after a while, I think it would take some time to get sick of flying around the caribbean or south Florida for that matter :( While I am thinking about it, I remember asking him how it is to fly something as big as an ATR, since my experience has only been in small Cessnas. He told me about a short flight from DFW to Tyler which is a pretty short route and they were landing with a pretty strong crosswind. He said that he had to apply so much rudder and was pressing so hard that had he not been buckled in he the force probably would have had him standing up from the seat. :( So in other words the controls are a lot heavier that what you would imagine if your used to flying a Cessna 172. I guess I could relate since I had a chance to get 2 hours in the F-4 simulator at what was at one time George AFB in the Victorville area of southern Cal. My flight instructor at the time was renting a room from an F-4 pilot and his wife and he was able to get me in for those 2 hours. I remember that once we started I was amazed at how much force it took to move the stick. I think the first thing I asked him was if the hydraulics or whatever was supposed to be on was on. He said yes, that just the way it is. After about 5 minutes I had to start using two hands to move the stick since my right arm had gotten so tired, lol. Fun times it was, but after that I can imagine what it must be like to pilot a large a/c vs. a small Cessna.Anyway, I will shoot you a PM with his name.Regards,Sean Campbell

[GoranM 3,818]

Here's how it is in Oz. It MAY apply to other airlines and countries but I'm not sure.Down here, there are 3 ways you can do it.1. Get your ATPL (self financed) and then pay an airline about $70 000-$100 000 (depending on the airline) for training. As of about 10 years ago, I think Lufthansa were guaranteeing placements if they accepted you for their training program.2. Study your &@($* off in high school (particularly Maths and Physics) and then do a Masters in Aviation at university along with getting an ATPL. Airlines are more likely to hire those with degrees than those without.3. Get your ATPL and apply for a small regional airline and work your way up. Get hours under your belt. It's not uncommon for airline pilots to have started as an air courier.An ATPL down here will cost around $75000.Any way you choose, you're getting into a very competitive market where someone almost always knows more than you.Lastly, be prepared to move for your job. If you can't do that, it will limit your chances and there are others who will jump at the opportunity.

[air-ick 79]

Terry and Sean,You guys are right on the money and I'm there with you.Anyone who is contemplating pursuing a career as an airline pilot needs to know what is really happening in the industry and to not discuss this aspect of the profession would be doing a disservice to that individual.Bottom line is, if you have a passion for flying and you truly want to be an airline pilot, then by all means, go for it. Just understand that the glamour that accompanied this profession a generation ago is gone and one needs to know what their getting into before they start shelling out some major cash to get the ratings.

[Guest TBM930]

First, and I say this respectfully to forum users, you're asking you're questions in the wrong place. Many flight simulator pilots provide information and advice on subjects they have little education on and offer second hand information. I work for an airline known internationally that fly very modern and heavy aircraft i.e 747's 737's etc. Though i'm not a pilot, I interact with these men and woman on a day-to-day basis. I offer to you the following advice from mere observation of their characteristics and by conversation:Knowledge - etcBe an expert - etcPersonal attributes - betcDedication and commitment - etcI could go on, etcAshley Frew.

I know you posted this as you mentioned respectfully to forum users, and I do agree there can be a lot of garbage in...garbage out sort of speak on forums in general by nameless people. Having said this, there are those of us who have real life experience such as myself who wanted to become an airline pilot and who chose what was supposed to be an new integrated route here in Montreal Quebec! The Ministry of Education authorized student loans to a new aviation college based on the promises of an already very rich business man that he would sign agreements with local companies who would hire us upon graduating to enable us to build out time until we obtained our ATP. Long Story, the agreements never materialized and in short, the flight school appeared in news after students complained they were mislead. The school did not last long especially when students tried to launch a class action law suit. The Quebec government who gave us the loans wiped their hands stating it was not their fault! I contested the repayment of this loan over 14 years and finally saw my day in court just last week where I represented myself against 2 lawyers from the Quebec Ministry of Education and I won my case! Some aviation colleges make you spend a fortune on theory teaching you about Boeing 737 systems etc. when the chances of a pilot touching this airplane fresh out of school with only 200-250 hours is very unlikely! In my opinion you can try to sell yourself all you want to companies but in Canada at least I've sent thousands of resumes and without an ATP in pocket my career is dead. So unless you attend an integrated program such as Comair Academy in the US which promises to keep you on board to build your time as a paid flight instructor, I would definitely take the CFI route instead. It is too late for me know since I am supporting a family which cannot be done on a CFI's salary.So Ross, do talk to pilots who are working for Airlines (if you know any) and ask them how they got there! No use trying to reinvent the wheel if the answers are already before you! At 28 when I met with an Air Canada 767 co-pilot over a coffee he had built his time as as CFI and was willing to put in a good word for me at the flying school where he used to each. Unfortunately I was not in a financial situation to inject money into a CFI and even I was not in a situation which could allow me to earn less than $30,000 CDN. Also I knew a flight dispatcher who worked like crazy for very little money and then become a flight instructor and shortly after obtaining his ATP was hired by Jazz (Air Canada) flying the Dash 8.I am glad you are starting young since timing is of the essence and family support. I got my PPL at age 21 and my CPL, M.E. IFR at 28. Now I am considerably older looking in the rearview mirror! I am however studying to obtain my flight dispatchers license and hope to get in the industry and be of some use. I use FSX to keep sharp and to learn about planes that I know I will never touch in real life and I fly minimally just to keep current.Regards to Ashely, but to reiterate my point of view.....get your ATP as fast as you and the rest should fall into place and talk with real pilots who are already there! Just hanging around your local flying club your bound to meet pilots who know airline pilots. It's a small world ! "But I wouldn't like to paint it!"Pat

[pager94 4]

Basically aside from having to be top notch in class, you need to be almost a perfect physical specimen before the military will comment big buck to train you and select you for pilot training, at least thats how it is in the US. Foreign military services might be differnt, but in the US getting into the military to be a pilot requires a lot of things to go right for you when it comes to you academic ability as well as physical condition. As wel as the fact that what used to be a 7 year commitment, is now 13 years.

Additionally, when I was in the AFROTC program a little over 10 years ago. Perfection on the physical exam was required and those requirements were that of "fighter pilot" status. Therefore, they didn't want candidates triaged due to phycial limitations. Thus, you had to be within a very tight high windows for fighter pilot, vision was minimum of 20/20 uncorrected 20/10 was competative. I had 20/20 however, my 6'6" hight and my right leg was physically 2" shorter than my left, to to slow growth at birth, essentially voided any chance. Regarding the budget committed to AF training. The major airlines druwal at military pilots because they are the best trained, best equipped and most experienced. On a recent United Airlies flight from KSFO to Honollulu the pilots greeted us on board by reasurring us we were in good hads because, the two man crew had 56 years of AF experience. By best trained, again, when I was trying to get into the program the F22 raptor was within a couple of years of entering service and pilot slots were achieveable at that time, about 13 years ago. The USAF spends $2.8 million dollars to train one fighter pilot and $600,000 for an airlift pilot. http://www.airforcetimes.com/community/opinion/airforce_editorial_pilotcuts_071217/I'm still paying off $50k on my failed airline pilot attempt and will be for the next 30 years.BB

[Tracon 10]

Not to rip on the Embry-Riddle guys, but I have flown with many Riddle grads. I haven't flown with one yet that impressed me

Yea, they have some people that know what they're doing there, but you don't get what you pay for... Like I said, you can get the same level of training for half the price somewhere else. And tuition keeps going up.

[jon b 2,083]

To be frank if you know you want to fly and that's all you want to do university is a complete waste of your time. If you aren't 100% sure about flying than yes, a degree would offer you better alternative job prospects.If you are set on flying the only alternative job you need is working on the ground at an airport or in tescos until that first flying job comes up after you are qualified.To succeed in flying you have to have the mentality that failure is not an option, not if the flying doesn't work I'll go and be a lawyer instead.This is all different depending on where you live of course, I'm personally talking about the UK here.Don't waste 4 years of your life gaining a qualification thats irrelevant to flying, use it to gain flying experience. I'd much rather give a job to a kid who's spent time washing aeroplanes at the aero club in exchange for a quick flight in a PA 38 every other week, than one who's never flown but has a degree.(before getting ATPL qualified) Don't be fooled by the spin from some flight schools that are offering these combined aviation management degree with ATPLs its just a money maker on their behalf. Airlines don't want pilots with management degrees, they don't LIKE pilots with management degrees, their view is we employ you to fly a plane, We'll do the management bit thank you.Best of luckJon Bunting

[ColonelMustard 0]

Firstly I am with Terry all the way. It is always better to have something else to fall back on and it surely does not hurt to mature as a person in general. Sure, if BA offers to train you as an ab initio cadet - then go for it (or if daddy has a really fat wallet...). Anything else self-sponsored as the modular ATP route, try and get a job - having debt is the most horrible trap you could imagine to fall into - I promise you: your dream will turn into a nightmare for quite a while. Being 16 you have all the time in the world at your side to do all the things you want to, step by step. Do yourself a favor and be patient and be intelligent.Flying in the UK is pretty expensive. Going to the local flying club is really the best thing you are doing right now. There are many different career paths possible and no real set of rules, all of my mates including me all went about it a different way - depending on the opportunities we had at the time. Look for the open doors as much as you can, but sometimes you just have to hang in there and wait.just my 2 cents...

[RossThomson 1]

Thanks everyone, just to let you know, I read all of these comments, and I'm not one of the people who washes the planes for a quick ride in a PA-38 ;) I'm one who has spent near enough 2 thousand pounds already, OF MY OWN MONEY into flying and i'm 16. What am I getting myself into. (Rhetorical question) You see pilots all the time on flights, and they seem happy enough, is it okay once you've found a job and all?

[jon b 2,083]

Thanks everyone, just to let you know, I read all of these comments, and I'm not one of the people who washes the planes for a quick ride in a PA-38 ;) I'm one who has spent near enough 2 thousand pounds already, OF MY OWN MONEY into flying and i'm 16. What am I getting myself into. (Rhetorical question) You see pilots all the time on flights, and they seem happy enough, is it okay once you've found a job and all?

Wasn't suggesting you were paying for your flying by actually washing planes, just that doing that sort of thing shows a great deal about one's interest and passion about flying.The jobs ok, the higher up you get in the profession the better it gets,but lower down the working practices and conditions have been ruined over the years by the low cost carriers.