Would any Real Life pilot tell me if real aircraft yokes are self centring? i.e. you're banking left and you let the yoke/pedals go, would the controls go to 'neutral' in the same way as a car would. Let the car's steering wheel go and it would centre its wheels. Not that I think the aircraft would start to fly straight but would maintain the current attitude. Am I making sense? :blush:Part two of the question is: If real aircraft 'self centre, does FSX model this behaviour? It occurred to me because my CH yoke/pedals have, what I think, are too 'positive' springloads.That's to say artificial centring.

Definitely, yes! Self-centering aerodynamic control forces are a feature of good aircraft design.Regarding the CH pedals, the "center-stop" is an undesired design feature (can not be fixed), but nothing too inconvenient to get used to (for me at least.)Cheers,- jahman.

The wind passing over the plane forces the control surfaces toward neutral, that'll translate backwards trough the push rods and centre the yoke. At least thats how it works in simple GA planes. The attitude will, after you centre the yoke, depend on elevator trim setting, throttle, balance of the plane, and wing design. I think most GA planes have self wing leveling abilities provided by a slight v-shape (seen in the horizontal plane).Planes in FSX will centre the yoke and control surfaces according to what your yoke/stick does. The springloaded centering action, strong or weak, of the yoke in my opinion is sort of irrelevant, though. You're not supposed to let go of the yoke at any time during flight (unless on AP of course :Batting Eyelashes: ) so you'll bring the yoke back to centre by hand. So, however unnatural it looks and feels when the yoke snaps back to centre, just as unnatural is it to let go of the yoke. I don't know the CH yoke, but the force of the springs shouldn't make you use force to hold the yoke in any position for longer periods, like when in a slow turn. Otherwise you should look for a modification how-to, and perhaps install other springs. I got the Saitek, and I can't say it feels very natural either (had some real lessons), but it turns very lightly.But there's some pricy pro hardware out there that'll add to the heavy feel of realistic flight if you're up for it :Whistle: Bjorn

...the force of the springs shouldn't make you use force to hold the yoke in any position

You are right about aileron forces and maybe I should disassemble the yoke to release the aileron spring for a more realistic feel.But in all aircraft the elevator has a very strong tendency to return to the trimmed value (either due to a trim spring, a trim aerodynamic tab on the elevator or a jack screw that changes the angle of incidence of the horizontal stabilizer (and therefore also the elevator). Aircraft with zero force feedback on the elevator are dangerous to fly because there is no tactile feedback on deviations away from trimmed airspeed to alert the pilot (and for that reason alone will not be certificated by the FAA).Cheers,- jahman.

Definitely, yes! Self-centering aerodynamic control forces are a feature of good aircraft design.

Right, that's part one answered. Thanks

Regarding the CH pedals, the "centre-stop" is an undesired design feature (can not be fixed), but nothing too inconvenient to get used to (for me at least.)Cheers,- jahman.

I understand that. I also understand that taking hands off the controls is not best practice, but let's look at a situation where you're banking to the left at about say, 30 degrees when your passenger pulls out a gun, sticks it in your ear and says "Put your hands up". You comply with his request immediately. What happens to the aircraft at that moment?Yeah alright, in real life you would have checked that any passengers would be unarmed before letting them board. (unless it's your wife who you are too scared of to disarm anyway.

You are right about aileron forces and maybe I should disassemble the yoke to release the aileron spring for a more realistic feel.But in all aircraft the elevator has a very strong tendency to return to the trimmed value (either due to a trim spring, a trim aerodynamic tab on the elevator or a jack screw that changes the angle of incidence of the horizontal stabilizer (and therefore also the elevator). Aircraft with zero force feedback on the elevator are dangerous to fly because there is no tactile feedback on deviations away from trimmed airspeed to alert the pilot (and for that reason alone will not be certificated by the FAA).Cheers,- jahman.

What I'm gathering from this is that FSX doesn't model self centring, it relies on the controller springs to do it. Right?As opposed to a racing sim (iRacing for example) where even if you have no spring assistance and no force feedback the castor action is modelled. Let go of the wheel (not to be recommended) and the car will straighten up.

I also understand that taking hands off the controls is not best practice, but let's look at a situation where you're banking to the left at about say, 30 degrees when your passenger pulls out a gun, sticks it in your ear and says "Put your hands up". You comply with his request immediately. What happens to the aircraft at that moment?

Actually in real life aircraft continue to bank until they overbank unless you feed-in opposite aileron once you attain the desired bank angle. (Reason being the outer wing is flying faster than the inner wing thus generating more lift that will continue to bank the aircraft unless neutralized via opposite aileron.So you see in real life it really is not possible to take your hands off the yoke in a turn!The overbanking issue would be automatically compensated in an aircraft controlled via fly-by-wire as in Airbus aircraft, but Airbus aircraft sport joysticks rather than yokes! :-)Cheers,- jahman.

So you see in real life it really is not possible to take your hands off the yoke in a turn!

Thanks, you've answered the question 'What would happen' Clearly you CAN take your hands off the yoke but with dire consequences! Bullet, or crash anyway? :Thinking: I'd still put my hands up and see how long he keeps his gun in my ear. Not long I'm guessing. :biggrin:That leaves the second part of my question. Does FSX model the aforesaid behaviour? Unfortunately, I can't take the springs out of my controllers in order to find out. My guess is that FSX leaves it to the springs.

Interesting, I've just finished a flight and put these things to the test and FSX does appear to model the flight characteristics fairly well. I banked, I let go of the yoke and the aircraft held it's attitude more or less. Of course the physical yoke and the 'on screen' yoke sprang back to the dead ahead position.

If you really want force-feedback, you can model control forces and use them to drive a force-feedback enabled joystick (not that expensive) or yoke (very expensive, no springs attached) See

.Cheers,- jahman.

Actually in real life aircraft continue to bank until they overbank unless you feed-in opposite aileron once you attain the desired bank angle. (Reason being the outer wing is flying faster than the inner wing thus generating more lift that will continue to bank the aircraft unless neutralized via opposite aileron.Cheers,- jahman.

Where did you read that? Unless the plane yaws both wings should experience the same relative wind speed. The difference would be minute, at least. When I took some lessons I was explained about the self levelling effect of planes with slightly angled wings, the above mentioned horizontal V-shape. At a right angle to gravity the upper wing will have a slightly smaller coloumn of air to ride on. Thus gravity will pull the relatively heavier wing towards the ground and level the plane. I'll look it up this week-end. But I would be very interested in reading about the phenomenon you're discribing.Bjorn

Actually in real life aircraft continue to bank until they overbank unless you feed-in opposite aileron once you attain the desired bank angle. (Reason being the outer wing is flying faster than the inner wing thus generating more lift that will continue to bank the aircraft unless neutralized via opposite aileron.So you see in real life it really is not possible to take your hands off the yoke in a turn!The overbanking issue would be automatically compensated in an aircraft controlled via fly-by-wire as in Airbus aircraft, but Airbus aircraft sport joysticks rather than yokes! :-)Cheers,- jahman.

If you did let someone into your cockpit who made you put your hands up all you have to do is feed in a bit of rudder to level the a/c. The aerodynamic forces would bring the control column back to the centre. Unless of course you had to stick your feet up as well as your hands!!!!!!vololiberista

Actually in real life aircraft continue to bank until they overbank unless you feed-in opposite aileron once you attain the desired bank angle. (Reason being the outer wing is flying faster than the inner wing thus generating more lift that will continue to bank the aircraft unless neutralized via opposite aileron.So you see in real life it really is not possible to take your hands off the yoke in a turn!The overbanking issue would be automatically compensated in an aircraft controlled via fly-by-wire as in Airbus aircraft, but Airbus aircraft sport joysticks rather than yokes! :-)Cheers,- jahman.

What you describe would only happen close to the stall and is known as an incipient spin.vololiberista

ok - I'm missing something here. To the OP - don't confuse the self centering of the yoke with the *leveling* of the wings. The yoke is designed to self center both IRL and CH.Simply - in GA if you stand behind an aircraft anl look at the wings , they will be slightly tilted upwards as opposed to military a/c where they are level or slightly tilted downwards. This angle (dihedral) affects the roll moment of the aircraft - essentially meaning that if you take your hands off the controls the wing will attempt to level itself.Now, when you are flying and you enter a left bank, you turn the yoke until you have established the angle of bank and rate of turn that you want. After that you neutralize (center) the controls and only apply enough pressure to keep the angle of bank.So to answer your original question, if you put your hands up in an a/c that had normal dihedral and ignoring wind gusts, the wings would start to level. This would not necessarily be the case in a/c with no or negative dihedral.By itself, you'd have to force current genertion general aircraft to overbank. Frankly, with some newbie pilots sometimes the best thing they can do when it trouble *IS* take their hands off the controls and let the a/c fly itself to stablility.Vic

ok - I'm missing something here. To the OP - don't confuse the self centering of the yoke with the *leveling* of the wings. The yoke is designed to self center both IRL and CH.Simply - in GA if you stand behind an aircraft anl look at the wings , they will be slightly tilted upwards as opposed to military a/c where they are level or slightly tilted downwards. This angle (dihedral) affects the roll moment of the aircraft - essentially meaning that if you take your hands off the controls the wing will attempt to level itself.Now, when you are flying and you enter a left bank, you turn the yoke until you have established the angle of bank and rate of turn that you want. After that you neutralize (center) the controls and only apply enough pressure to keep the angle of bank.So to answer your original question, if you put your hands up in an a/c that had normal dihedral and ignoring wind gusts, the wings would start to level. This would not necessarily be the case in a/c with no or negative dihedral.By itself, you'd have to force current generation general aircraft to overbank. Frankly, with some newbie pilots sometimes the best thing they can do when it trouble *IS* take their hands off the controls and let the a/c fly itself to stability.Vic

Vic, you're the only one who didn't miss anything. That was the answer I was looking for. It was what I 'thought', but didn't 'know'. And FSX does pretty much as you've described. I really must learn not to spice up my posts with humour. It doesn't always translate. :biggrin:Case closed. Next!

If you did let someone into your cockpit who made you put your hands up all you have to do is feed in a bit of rudder to level the a/c. The aerodynamic forces would bring the control column back to the centre. Unless of course you had to stick your feet up as well as your hands!!!!!!vololiberista

1. In these discussions we're all assuming coordinated flight, so rudder is being applied in the propper amount.2. You are confusing self-centering ailerons with self-levelling wings.3. Many aircraft are designed specifically to have self-cancelling control forces for ailerons. How else do you fly a 70 ton B-377 on pilot muscle alone?

What you describe would only happen close to the stall and is known as an incipient spin.vololiberista

Thanks for the explanation. I will now go and tell the World Gliding Community they are all thermalling in incipient spins. Right.The undeniable fact remains that when turning the outer wing flies faster than the inner wing. If the airspeed is low enough, and the wings are long enough (many GA A/C these days have moved on beyond hershey-bar planform) positive wing dihedral is not enough to keep the A/C from overbanking and light opposit aileron must be held during the turn. IIRC same on the PMDG B-747.

Vic, you're the only one who didn't miss anything.

Hey! What about me? :Big Grin: Did you check the links I provided for force-feedback yokes and joystics for FSX? (You did ask "does FSX model this behaviour?")Cheers,- jahman.