Little off topic but I am curious to how AMR will paint the new 787 fleet. They have a tradition of metalic paint scheme however the new 787 is a mixture of metals and compostites. I've seen some concepts showing them painted in white instead of shiney bare metal. I think AMR will have a great fleet of aircraft with a great mixture of Boeing and Airbus aircraft to fly. Goes to show that with contracting out maintanence it really doesn't matter if you buy from one or the other. Southwest buys an all 737 fleet to cut down on maintenance however the days of internal maintanence are over anyways. Now they just sign service contracts with outside companies. Training may be a bit of an expense and challenge with a mixture of Boeing and Airbus for pilots, flight crew and ground crew. But that is nothing new really.

Little off topic but I am curious to how AMR will paint the new 787 fleet. They have a tradition of metalic paint scheme however the new 787 is a mixture of metals and compostites. I've seen some concepts showing them painted in white instead of shiney bare metal.

They don't have any on order. But if you look at all of their aircraft there are sections that are composites and they paint them light gray.

They don't have any on order. But if you look at all of their aircraft there are sections that are composites and they paint them light gray.

Wow I just checked that. I thought they did place an order. They only have an option for 42. They've got 598 current orders (including the 787 option) so that is a really big revamp right there... Cheers

Boeing easily has the capacity to do the whole order but American decided not to go that way for whatever reasoning. In Renton they still have another line available for aircraft and in it's current state the factory could pump out 45-55 aircraft per month. If they add the other line they could conceivably send out 75 aircraft a month.

That's not entirely accurate. Even if the factory had that capability, the limiting factor is ramp space at KRNT for a flight line.

That's not entirely accurate. Even if the factory had that capability, the limiting factor is ramp space at KRNT for a flight line.

That is what I figured, also staffing people quickly is a challenge. Even calling back people laid off is no guarantee as people do move on after a layoff. It is not that easy to ramp up a production line in any industry...Or AMR just orders from 2 suppliers and gets jets simultaneously. The purchase process of any corporation doesn't care about national origin. Purchasing on this level as a process and not a decision.

That's not entirely accurate. Even if the factory had that capability, the limiting factor is ramp space at KRNT for a flight line.

They have plenty of ramp space at KMWH and KGEG that they are able to use. The only limiting factor right now is the workers.

They have plenty of ramp space at KMWH and KGEG that they are able to use. The only limiting factor right now is the workers.

So... how will they ferry the extra aircraft to KMWH and KGEG for functional testing and preflight shakedown? Trust me, it's logistically impossible to produce 75 aircraft per month out of Renton, and workforce has nothing to do with it.

So... how will they ferry the extra aircraft to KMWH and KGEG for functional testing and preflight shakedown? Trust me, it's logistically impossible to produce 75 aircraft per month out of Renton, and workforce has nothing to do with it.

They have done it before, trust me my father was the lead for the 737 program. The two times I remember was when we had the earthquake back in 2000 and it shutdown both BFI and RNT during the day for repairs. At night they would ferry aircraft that were ready out on the ramp out to MWH and some other aircraft. The other time was a few years after that when they were doing a paving project. Again just like before they flew them out at night to other airports to do further work on them.

They have done it before, trust me my father was the lead for the 737 program. The two times I remember was when we had the earthquake back in 2000 and it shutdown both BFI and RNT during the day for repairs. At night they would ferry aircraft that were ready out on the ramp out to MWH and some other aircraft. The other time was a few years after that when they were doing a paving project. Again just like before they flew them out at night to other airports to do further work on them.

OK but do they have the man-power to do this today, 11 years later from what you just described. Boeing isn't the same company today as it was back in 2000. Back in 2000 I worked for Cummins Diesel Engines as a Manufacturing Engineer and I was very happy, Now my old job is located to Juarez Mexico and they are very happy....Nothing good about that really. The USA has changed a lot in the past 11 years. I don't believe Boeing has the same resources that they had 11 years ago...not for one second. Anyone still with them today is very lucky to have a job like that, and Boeing would be a very different place for them compared to what it was like 11 years ago. Former Engineers like myself that used to work in those big companies took our packages and now I live in New Zealand, Completely out of the North American job market now. You bet many of those former Boeing employees have done the same in the past 5 to 7 years of restructuring...and are no longer available as they've moved on for good.

I don't think they would have a problem raising production levels quickly. If you look at the people who were let go many of them came back. Plus there are many people that continue to try to get a job with Boeing. If they had a job fair there would be a long line of people willing to work. Now only if they could kill these unions and continue on with production.

I don't think they would have a problem raising production levels quickly. If you look at the people who were let go many of them came back. Plus there are many people that continue to try to get a job with Boeing. If they had a job fair there would be a long line of people willing to work. Now only if they could kill these unions and continue on with production.

Agreed, however it takes years to train people to the levels that Boeing used to have and it is very expensive. The thing about production is it takes a team on engineering to support the guys on the line and nothing is done without process documentation these days. That is no easy task. Back in the old days they would hand a guy (or girl) a rivet gun and tell them to get to it. Today just hiriing someone for the line means weeks of safety training and sign offs even before he/she gets anywhere near the production lines.....It is not an easy task to raise a workforce these days and it is very expensive to hire people as you described in Job Fairs and mass hirings.... Many of the reasons why Boeing and many others don't hire directly anymore. External contracting means someone else is handling the weeks of safety training before they set foot in the factory. But this leads to another set of issues with contractors on the lines.

Yeah all those safety meetings kill it, especially for aviation. But I guess it has worked for the better so they can't be all that bad.

They have done it before, trust me my father was the lead for the 737 program. The two times I remember was when we had the earthquake back in 2000 and it shutdown both BFI and RNT during the day for repairs. At night they would ferry aircraft that were ready out on the ramp out to MWH and some other aircraft. The other time was a few years after that when they were doing a paving project. Again just like before they flew them out at night to other airports to do further work on them.

I currently work in Renton. I can promise you that right now, in 2011, with the facilities in place, that assembling 75 aircraft a month is impossible. I wasn't there in 2000, so I don't know what the circumstances were following the quake, but I do know what I see every day. I could go into a long schpiel about it, but I'm not at liberty to discuss specifics. There is simply not enough factory floor real estate to handle a load like that. I don't know what is the motivation to argue this point, but I can't just sit here and watch someone make patently false statements about something that I am neck deep in on a day to day basis.

I don't know what is the motivation to argue this point, but I can't just sit here and watch someone make patently false statements about something that I am neck deep in on a day to day basis.

I respect that. Manufacturing is a very tough culture to be involved in. This is why I took my package and moved to the South Pacific.

I currently work in Renton. I can promise you that right now, in 2011, with the facilities in place, that assembling 75 aircraft a month is impossible. I wasn't there in 2000, so I don't know what the circumstances were following the quake, but I do know what I see every day. I could go into a long schpiel about it, but I'm not at liberty to discuss specifics. There is simply not enough factory floor real estate to handle a load like that. I don't know what is the motivation to argue this point, but I can't just sit here and watch someone make patently false statements about something that I am neck deep in on a day to day basis.

Even Jim McNerney confirmed they are going for 40-55 by decades end. Not arguing, just stating what people in the know are trying to get done. After the last post I asked my dad what they expected when they got the moving line up here from LGB and he was saying that at absolute peak (not looking at ramp space) they could do 100 frames a month. He said ramp limitations though would hold it down to around 60 if they could work as efficiently as planned. This all doesn't matter though if the 787 Carolina experiment works out for Boeing. It will be interesting to see what is in store for the negotiations coming up.