Yes, that's the idea.What's the GEE for the B-17?BTW, here's a bubble sextant for FSXAnd a Drift Meter. Cheers, - jahman.

GEE II.

But why warbirds? Why don't they make civil planes instead? That is what FSX is meant for. Since you can't shoot things down in FSX I find it hard to see a point for military planes in FS.

Yes, I also regret their focus on warbirds...

What's the GEE for the B-17?

GEE is a hyperbolic nav system. Strictly speaking it would be more likely a B-17 had H2X than GEE, this being a radar system, H2X being a slightly better version of the British H2S and commonly known as 'Mickey' to the crews, although the correct military name would be the AN/APS-15. H2X bounced signals forwards and downwards through clouds and was able to display identifiable coastlines and cities on a very early type of radar screen, to enable navigation at night or in the daytime over cloud cover, it was good enough to conduct bombing of cities with, but it was almost always used in combination with other navigational methods such as ded reckoning and pathfinder trails. GEE was a different system, also designed by the Brits but used by the US, although it is more commonly known by its later incarnation as LORAN which later evolved into OMEGA (which was used on relatively modern airliners before being eclipsed by GPS). Such systems were the 'GPS systems of their day' in that they used timed signals from several ground-based stations (as opposed to space-based satellites as GPS and GLONASS do) in order to determine an aircraft's position, the disadvantage being that all the signal stations had to be in friendly territory and that made it less accurate at long ranges over enemy terrain, which is probably where you'd need it most. Since there were no sophisticated lightweight TV display screens in those days, the signals were displayed on an oscilliscope, and there were chart books with pictures of what the signals would look like at various locations given to navigators, who would compare the pictures to the display and know where they were, although some skilled bomber navigators learned to interpret the displays more fully and could use them to conduct blind landings, with accuracy being down to a hundred feet or so apparently, which was amazing for that period. The Germans used a variation of that system called knickebein, which was similar in principle to how we navigate today by tuning in two VOR beacons, although knickebein was two purely directional radio beams (which is in fact one of the reasons why the Germans wanted to invade up the Scandinavian coast, in order to send such signals across the North Sea crossed with ones sent from France). It incorporated a timer system to release bombs on target as well, which was triggered when the bomber reached the point where the signal paths crossed, trouble with that system was that it was possible for the Allies to detect the signals and work out where they crossed since they were so directional, which gave the Allies a pretty good idea of where the Germans were going to bomb that night and have fighters ready to go in that location, since the signal was often focused and tested earlier in the day by German technicians who were unaware of this pitfall. It'd be good to be able to play around with decent simulations of some of these things on warbirds in FS, as you don't actually need to bomb things to use them usefully. Al

Yes, I also regret their focus on warbirds...

Meaning you would rather have them do an Accusim'ed King Air 350i, for example? They've done the cub and the B377 [twice], PMDG have essentially just "Accsim'ed" the 737, there is the Katana4X and then arguably the Turbine Duke. Perhaps FSLabs will get the A320 added to this list. The civilian side of things seems to be pretty well "Accusim'ed" already in my opinion. If anything I "regret" that A2A have not [yet] managed to bring us an Accusim'ed Bf109 or even better a Stuka! PS: Thanks Alan, that was a very interesting read.

Just to add to Chock's description of GEE.. the airborne unit worked in conjunction with a system of four ground stations, called AMES 7000, or a 7k chain. There were many 7k chains, each using a different pulse recurrence frequency. Each chain consisted of a master transmitter - the "A" station, plus three slave stations - B, C & D.The "A" station transmitted its pulse of radio frequency which was received by the slave stations, and, after a certain built-in delay each slave transmitted its pulse.The aircraft then received these pulses, and the time delays between the master pulse and the slave pulses was measured and used to 'fix'the position of the aircraft. The slave stations were positioned in a rough 'square, at approximately 93 miles from the master and each other. The time delays were measured on an oscilloscope by manipulating four knobs, each of which had a dial above it giving a number when synchronized with the received pulse, that number being physically transposed to a Gee map with numbered and colored hyperbolic lines superimposed upon an actual map. The aircraft's position was then at the intersection of all four numbered lines, to within one hundred feet.. or so... one would hope... A great system for it's time, but sadly sooo out of date by modern equipment. Now you all know how old I really am.. Also, a tid-bit for the Naval enthusiasts - this was the basis of "Shoran" - with two transmitters in Europe and two in the US.

GEE is a hyperbolic nav system. Strictly speaking it would be more likely a B-17 had H2X than GEE, this being a radar system, H2X being a slightly better version of the British H2S and commonly known as 'Mickey' to the crews, although the correct military name would be the AN/APS-15. H2X bounced signals forwards and downwards through clouds and was able to display identifiable coastlines and cities on a very early type of radar screen, to enable navigation at night or in the daytime over cloud cover, it was good enough to conduct bombing of cities with, but it was almost always used in combination with other navigational methods such as ded reckoning and pathfinder trails. GEE was a different system, also designed by the Brits but used by the US, although it is more commonly known by its later incarnation as LORAN which later evolved into OMEGA (which was used on relatively modern airliners before being eclipsed by GPS). Such systems were the 'GPS systems of their day' in that they used timed signals from several ground-based stations (as opposed to space-based satellites as GPS and GLONASS do) in order to determine an aircraft's position, the disadvantage being that all the signal stations had to be in friendly territory and that made it less accurate at long ranges over enemy terrain, which is probably where you'd need it most. Since there were no sophisticated lightweight TV display screens in those days, the signals were displayed on an oscilliscope, and there were chart books with pictures of what the signals would look like at various locations given to navigators, who would compare the pictures to the display and know where they were, although some skilled bomber navigators learned to interpret the displays more fully and could use them to conduct blind landings, with accuracy being down to a hundred feet or so apparently, which was amazing for that period. The Germans used a variation of that system called knickebein, which was similar in principle to how we navigate today by tuning in two VOR beacons, although knickebein was two purely directional radio beams (which is in fact one of the reasons why the Germans wanted to invade up the Scandinavian coast, in order to send such signals across the North Sea crossed with ones sent from France). It incorporated a timer system to release bombs on target as well, which was triggered when the bomber reached the point where the signal paths crossed, trouble with that system was that it was possible for the Allies to detect the signals and work out where they crossed since they were so directional, which gave the Allies a pretty good idea of where the Germans were going to bomb that night and have fighters ready to go in that location, since the signal was often focused and tested earlier in the day by German technicians who were unaware of this pitfall. It'd be good to be able to play around with decent simulations of some of these things on warbirds in FS, as you don't actually need to bomb things to use them usefully. Al

Thanks for the info, I see GEE was similar to LORAN. It would be really cool, for example, if A2A aircraft were further "Accu-Simmed" to include working gear like the GEE airborne receiver and scope: Also the 377's P&W R-4360 Wasp Majors in their more advanced incarnations (perhaps only on the C-97?) had spark advance for leaner long-range cruise (20º --> 30º), as well as a scope-based Sperry ignition analyzer. Last but not elast, an operational HF radio with loading coils and antennae could also be accu-simmed. Indeed, WWII radio nav vas a bit of a "mad" Spy vs. Spy game between the germans inventing new gear and the brits sabotaging the signals often causing the germans to bomb the North Sea There's an interesting account of the WWII "The Battle of the Beams" and WWII Electronic Warfare Part 1, Part 2. Cheers, - jahman.

often causing the germans to bomb the North Sea

The allies bombed far more than their fair share of perfectly empty German countryside. Empty except for livestock that is which I understand also had it fairly rough during the war.

The allies bombed far more than their fair share of perfectly empty German countryside. Empty except for livestock that is which I understand also had it fairly rough during the war.

The Allies missed their primary targets on D-Day using Radar, which was the German artillery fortifications guarding the Beach, not because it was inaccurate, but the proximity of the Fleet to the Beach, the Navy was afraid of their ships getting hit, so they had the Bombers delay the drops by a few seconds (I believe 30), which of course resulted in the bombs falling harmlessly behind the lines. Had they dropped on schedule the Americans may have had it a little easier on Omaha, and Utah beach, if they hit the targets.

To me the desicion to delay the drop by 30 seconds highlights just how little faith commanders had in the accuracy of their bombers. And this is 1944 we are talking about, so pretty late in the game. High altitude bombing had been going on for years by this stage.

One suspects it was probably more to do with inter-service rivalry and a lack of knowledge about other units capabilities, which has always been around. There have been times where combined operations have worked very well, but you can just imagine the conversations going on at the planning stages for D-Day, and you can pretty much guarantee some naval commander will have said: 'I don't want any of those bombers dropping stuff near my ships'. This kind of thing is exemplified in the movie 'A Bridge Too Far' about the disastrous raid on the Bridges in the Netherlands, where Gene Hackman (playing General Sosabowski) voices concerns about the operation, and upon learning that the plan is to drop his paratroops eight miles away from his objective, walks up to the RAF briefing officer to check the man's insignia and says: 'just making sure whose side you are on'. Al