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Inside C-130 transporting POW's from Afganistan. (Economy class)

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>POW's...huh?, Yes I've seen these pics, but from a different angle. The "POW" bit is 'to be proved'.Paul

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>>POW's>>>...huh?, Yes I've seen these pics, but from a different >angle. The "POW" bit is 'to be proved'. >>>Paul >

>

http://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/Fortress.gif >Voted Best Virtual Airline of 2002 and Best CEO of 2002 by >participants in the BIG VA Vote organized by FSPILOT.com >VANF "Best" New Virtual Airline Award >Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name >and logo >http://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/saint_georgex1.gif >

What needs to be proven? They all have black hoods on and are tied together........Shane

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He says, that POW's have to be treated like POW's according to international law. Particularly by a country, that is the self-appointed leader of the free world.What we see looks more like a animal transport.Shame on US.RegardsHamsterpilot

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Hmmmmm....money should have been better spent.

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Hamsterpilot... so we should use a nice, all first class 777 and offer them all wine and steak and use handcuffs that have a fluffy, soft covering on them? I dont see a thing wrong with the way they are being transported... POW is Prisoner of War, as I'm sure you knew... and these guys we're probably shooting at the US military the day or week before... maybe a couple of them even killed someone. There is nothing cruel about the way they are being transported in that picture.

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"There is nothing cruel about the way they are being transported in that picture."Agreed, if they are all indeed guilty of a crime. The guilty ones hardly deserve the label of POW. Even the Geneva convention required POW's to act within a certain code of conduct to maintain their status. The guilty ones--they are criminals, and deserve no more respect than an insect. But my concern is also for the innocents. And it has already been proven that some of those who were treated this way had committed no crime, and had simply been in the wrong place at the wrong time. If this picture is not a fake, it gives me a great deal of disgust to know that my government acted with the bully tactics of a third world country. What I see in the picture is a blind blood lust--a "I don't care if >they< live or die attitude". I guarantee you if the innocent didn't hate the U.S. then, they hate it now.It's just my humble opinion, but I think the U.S. needs to tone down it's anti-terrorist "war". Treat the guilty as criminals. And quit blasting "another attack is coming" all over the airwaves every time a tape comes out from Al Qaeda. Airtime is a victory for terrorism, and that means they are winning the war, which has the simple goal of terror, disruption, and turning countries like ours into countries like theirs. We see an example of that in this picture, assuming even one of them is guilty of no crime.

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If that is real, I think that maybe it's a bit extreme, even for POWs.They're still people, even if they are fighting on the opposite side.

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It's extreme for the innocent, but I would not reward the guilty with the label POW, nor would I associate them with any side other than a criminal desire to maim, kill and sow terror for no reason other than glory or a baseless interpretation of the Koran. They do not fight for any "cause", or any nation. They are just drones, manipulated by an egomaniac. They don't know how to think for themselves, and can only echo the lies they are fed by the local Imam. It was funny...I had to read the Koran as part of a College thesis on Islam. I found it a text as easily manipulated for war as the Bible, yet also one to bring peace and understanding and a better way of living. Pity we rarely hear from those who understand it, and it's more a pity that those who interpret it wrongly have followed the same example as those who maimed and killed on behalf of a wrong interpretation of the Bible. It's a fine line to walk--defending those who are innocent, while deploring those who are guilty. They have no more excuse for their terrorism as a really bad dude had for his actions. If I were 100 pct. certain that no innocent were in that picture, then they are getting first class treatment compared to those whose lives were snuffed out on 9/11.....

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It just looks worse than it actually is. They're merely blindfolded and secured. That's it. Now if they were being transported in any way that would be dangerous or painful to them, that would be wrong. They are people but they are also enemies of our country and have to be treated accordingly.Just remember, what if it was one of your family memebers that was killed as a result of 9/11 or during the battle in Afghanistan?

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"Just remember, what if it was one of your family memebers that was killed as a result of 9/11 or during the battle in Afghanistan?"Kind of a low blow, don't you think? Are you saying that everyone brought to Cuba was guilty, and deserved to be treated like an animal? Or, maybe that those who were innocent are just casualties of war? Once we start believing that, then we're no better than the animals who hit us on 9/11, no better than the #####... As for 9/11, I suffered nearly as much as anyone who lost a loved one. On the flight that went down in PA, it was reported that an Andrew Garcia had perished. A common name, but I couldn't get in contact with a close friend by the same name, who traveled quite often. Not knowing whether someone is dead, whether for a week or a lifetime, is a living hell. I suspect a fair majority in this forum, or in the nation, had similar fears. One of my peers who shared my "cell"...a cute name for our adjoining cubes, lost a business associate in the WTC. Company wide (we number 1500), several lost loved ones. Others have their sons and daughters serving in battle right now. None of this justifies the rounding up of people, just because they happen to be a different race, or a different creed. We made mistakes in the rather young "war" on terrorism, and rounded up many and herded them to Cuba, then threw them in outdoor cages. I'd guess the majority were guilty, but I'd bet many weren't. And knowing some bad apples who claim the honor of being our fighting men, but carry their bigotry into battle, I would guess some got herded up just for looking at such "soldiers" in the wrong way. So I won't sit here any longer and argue about how 9/11 should make us feel justified about rounding up the good with the bad. You may feel free to do so, but I won't be listening...'nuff said

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>So I won't sit here any longer and argue about how >9/11 should make us feel justified about rounding up the >good with the bad. You may feel free to do so, but I won't >be listening... >>'nuff said Well, I'm not about to call you stupid or wrong. That's what you believe and that's your right. But, I meant what I wrote and I'm going to stand by it. We just have different opinions on this matter. Thanks for your input though. :) Have a good night!Gary

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"Well, I'm not about to call you stupid or wrong. That's what you believe and that's your right."I said 'nuff said, but seeing your response, I felt it important to say that that was the fairest, most polite response I think anyone could have ever written, condidering the way I responded to you. Thank you for that, for allowing me to offer an opinion.And as I said, the ones who are guilty are lucky compared to the ones that suffered on 9/11. Assuming they get to pay the ultimate price, they get to be "put to sleep", while those they murdered were burned or crushed alive. I'd rather see them locked in a cage with no books, no Koran, no outside contact, no stimulation of any kind. But then the liberals will cry "cruel and unusual punishment." When it comes to the guilty, my views harden due to the hell I, this country and our international friends were put through.Good night as well.... It's almost Friday!

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"although you're right on this,try to name a country that spends more money on weapons for other countries e.g. IsraelIMHO,solving problems is not equal to giving weapons?"I feel this argument is flawed. One of the biggest "justifications" the terrorists have used is this quote "our people are being bombed by the Zionists with American weapons."American weapons? Those weapons are heavily invested in by shareholders all over the planet. I'd almost bet that some rich terrorist zealots are shareholders in some of these weapons companies. And Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, even Iran and Iraq--all have bought or use "American" weapons. And to be more blunt, Israel's citizens have long been the victims of "Palestinian weapons"--namely children with bombs strapped on their bodies. As a U.S. citizen, I don't feel compelled to use that as an argument for killing all Palestinian children. If one were to argue that Israel kills children too, I'd say on the scale of things, I see far more murder of innocents by the Palestinian side, and its murder that's more deliberate.I was recently sent unsolicited pictures by an ex-Arab friend, showing maimed (and dead) Palestinian children. I responded by sending pictures of concentration camps (many Arab nations were sypathetic to the ######'s in WW-II), of the twin towers, of the hole in the ground where an airplane also carrying children crashed in PA. Had no idea why he sent them to me, other than I had mentioned that I was strongly against the Israeli occupation. I feel he put 2+2 together, and assumed I was sympathetic to the cause. What stupid fools, these terrorists, if they think becoming the animals they pretend others to be helps their cause. These arguments always come up in post 9/11 discussions--a linking of America the "self-appointed" as some type of reason for the events of 9/11. Or America's links to Israel. That just puts sugar into the mouths of the terrorists, as far as I'm concerned. But I guarantee you, if I'm going to look for moral high ground, it won't be in the words of the Imams, Bin Laden's, or bully dictators. And considering the anti-semitism I still see in my European travels, I won't find it there. No matter what our transgressions, I sleep better knowing that I'm under the U.S. flag, which is one that means something--the fact that we can sit and discuss our imperfections, our mistakes, and even argue over and possibly prevent a war in Iraq. We are far from perfect as a country--there is still racism, there is still too much use of the "big stick" before diplomacy. But there is such an anti-U.S. arrogance in the world, I'd almost call it racism as well. Much of it is as ignorant as our understanding of other cultures, if not more so. And I share a unique perspective on that, having family and having lived both in Europe and Latin America. Want to know how to respond? Start listing the good things that are done by American citizens. One Aviation related--we have a group of doctors here in the southwest which flies at their own expense into the rural regions of Mexico, to provide free treatment there. It's no knock on the Mexican medical system....I've been treated by it and there are excellent facilities and doctors. But here in the Southwest, some of our major centers are much closer to the rural, remote regions in Mexico.I listed my reasons why I was concerned over the picture shown. But at the same time, I bristle when I see the post 9/11 arguments against the U.S. appearing over and over again. I suggest people study history in its entirety, rather than the bits and pieces needed to justify a cause or a racist notion.

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So far as I can tell (without having read every word of every message in this thread), no one has attached a specific context to that photo to explain the need for treating the detainees in that way. There had been a major revolt at a prison in northern Afghanistan early in the conflict there; it went on for several days as I recall, and a CIA man was killed, and hundreds of the inmates who revolted ended up dead too. Apparently they wouldn't give up but were determined to fight it out with US and British forces to the bitter and bloody end. So the US knows it is detailing with a determined and fanatical element, and you'll have to excuse them for ensuring that they didn't somehow break loose of their bonds and perpetrate more fanaticism while in transit. Given half a chance and with nothing to lose reasonable people can reasonably assume some or all of the detainees would do anything they could to damage or bring down the plane and its crew. But there was no repetition of the disaster in northern Afghanistan, so the precautions that were adopted afterwards were effective...and necessary.

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I'm not accusing you of being a ######, but we have to be careful when we start putting things in "context", as a really bad dude used the same rationale as justification for the atrocities against the Jews in WW-II, which many Arabs supported. And respect the forum members enough to know that all of us are aware of what happened on 9/11 and in Afghanistan.My only worry when I see something like the above is the fact that it is known that some innocent were hauled off to Cuba along with the guilty. Putting a hood over someone's head, on a rocking and pitching aircraft, is pure hell. Losing all reference to the horizon, it causes severe nausea, anxiety, panic. Chain the guilty up, string 'em up for all I care. But we should never risk the innocent by using "context" as justification for punishment of a group.

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John,I didn't expect such a well-reasoned response from an american,but only tell me,in which European countries do you think there is still anti-semitism???the truth is (extreme)-right political parties are gaining many voters because there are so many immgigrants in Europe (especially U.K,France and Benelux).I'd agree with you if you said there is starting to grow (and there actually is) some anti-islam feeling,but anti-semitism not I believe

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I've run into it in England, Germany, Austria, and Northern Italy. I'm not talking about right wing political parties, but the average person. One quote I heard in Bologna--"Those Jews are ruining everything for us. I wish they get the hell out or disappear". That came from a client, and is a pretty typical comment. It came up in the context of a conversation where I mentioned how successful a previous German client was, that was part of the same franchise.Anti-Semitism thrives in Europe in what I call the "shadow" conversations--the type of conversations where someone trusts you to the point of saying anything. And I agree about the anti-immigrant feelings.... I've seen that evolve in the 25 years I've been traveling to, living, and doing business in Europe.Surprisingly, I've found in my U.S. East Coast travel a fair number of anti-Semitic comments, especially among the Italian community of which I am part of. It's one of the reasons I have little to do with my family on the East Coast. Having been raised in the Napa Valley, it was a melting pot of Europeans, Asians, and people from Latin America. We also had a large Muslim community attending my college, back in the late 70's, with an especially high number of students from UAE. A very close friend was son of UAE's defense minister, and we regarded him jealously as he'd say "I'm flying home for the week" as if he were saying, "I'm going to the market." Sad to say we lost touch, but he was a very good friend and helped me a lot on my thesis research.I guess you could say I grew up in an atomosphere where you had to learn tolerance to make friends, as no cultural group was big enough to be called a majority. And I wouldn't have had it any other way.-John

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Hi John,too true, and as the saying goes 'A society's level of civilisation can be measured by the way it treats its most undesirables'.Therefore, prisoners should not be transported this way and given the most humane treatment possible - if only to show that the degree of civilisation in the US is well beyond that of the terrorists, i.e. whatever atrocities they may have committed, they will still be treated to a fair trial according to the minimum standars prescribed by international (not US) law. Anything else, like the current legislation regarding 'enemy combattants' (a status not recognised by international law), or the pending 'Homeland Security' laws is just playing into their hands. Cheers,Gosta.

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Compare how in they past our POW were transported....(dragged through streets, beaten, whipped, shredded apart, shot, ##### pots dumped on them, had to eat their bodily functions to clean it up, tortured and anything else aquinted with pure hate and suffering..) And thats just the beginning. The above picture is more than friendly when compared what they do to past POWs. I just put it that way, but then again, since losing a loved one in 9/11 that my just be my own perspective...

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I think it also bears remembering that this bunch of people were also very combative, tried to bite and kick their guards while in flight, said they would glady cause the aircraft to crash however they could etc. #2, it's not much different than how our troops have flown when they had to. #3 it was ok by me if they were put in the hold an old Liberty ship and 3kts/hr all the way here via Cape of Good Hope.

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What you chaps are seeing are the fortunate ones. Had they been kept by the Northern Alliance their future would be glum indeed I also notice that their captors aren

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Hey:Remember many of these people were brought up this way, they think their cause is right. THe majority are minions, who most likely were brainwashed since childhood. I think the treatment to them is awful,even for POW's. Because just cuz a person fights against you it doesn't mean you should treat them like animals if captured.Sincerely,Daniel PimentelAA RULES!!! :)Download my semi-photoreal AA 757!:http://ftp.avsim.com/library/sendfile.php?DownloadID=16882Aerolineas Argentinas A330-200 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR.../posky332ar.zipChrome AA 767 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR...osky767aaV1.zipDominicana de Aviacion 727-53C NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyRepaints/dom722.zip______________________________"Whenever you find yourself in the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

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