Without Bill, We Lost

[mgh 89]

Does anyone have numbers on sales of FSX in particular?

Phil Taylor (then with ACES) discussed FSX sales in his blog. It included a link to Gamasutra which quoted FSX as 9th best selling game for the year 2007 with annual sales in the USA of 280,000. The best selling game - The world of Warcraft - sold 2.25 million. That's almost 10 times as many as FSX.

[Bottle 663]

The OP puts me in mind of these thoughts.If Bill Gates was the flight sim advocate that kept the franchise going, he left to do other far, far worthier things. i.e., he changed his perspective and priorities and maybe (pure speculation on my part) finally realised that the world doesn't revolve around a hand full of rich kids with enough time and money to waste on a computer game. We should keep in mind that the FS community is a minority of a world-wide monority of people. Perhaps time, money and mental energy could be directed somewhere better than self-indulgent leisure activities?

[SpiritFlyer 987]

The OP puts me in mind of these thoughts.If Bill Gates was the flight sim advocate that kept the franchise going, he left to do other far, far worthier things. i.e., he changed his perspective and priorities and maybe (pure speculation on my part) finally realised that the world doesn't revolve around a hand full of rich kids with enough time and money to waste on a computer game. We should keep in mind that the FS community is a minority of a world-wide monority of people. Perhaps time, money and mental energy could be directed somewhere better than self-indulgent leisure activities?

Truth

[simmerhead 885]

The OP puts me in mind of these thoughts.If Bill Gates was the flight sim advocate that kept the franchise going, he left to do other far, far worthier things. i.e., he changed his perspective and priorities and maybe (pure speculation on my part) finally realised that the world doesn't revolve around a hand full of rich kids with enough time and money to waste on a computer game. We should keep in mind that the FS community is a minority of a world-wide monority of people. Perhaps time, money and mental energy could be directed somewhere better than self-indulgent leisure activities?

I'm sure, but lets face the facts. The best brains in the world have invented everything that is destroying this planet, so I'd rather have them make flight simulators than atom bombs and medicine for the rich. Nobody in the privelidged parts of this planet cares about climate change and poverty enough to do anything remotely worthwhile about it. Let's keep this on topic. This is a flight sim forum after all.

[Bottle 663]

Nobody in the privelidged parts of this planet cares about climate change and poverty enough to do anything remotely worthwhile about it.

That's highly debatable.

Let's keep this on topic. This is a flight sim forum after all.

Very true. Point taken. But some here could lower their blood pressure if they thought about this a bit more.

[DylanM 1,069]

The OP puts me in mind of these thoughts.If Bill Gates was the flight sim advocate that kept the franchise going, he left to do other far, far worthier things. i.e., he changed his perspective and priorities and maybe (pure speculation on my part) finally realised that the world doesn't revolve around a hand full of rich kids with enough time and money to waste on a computer game. We should keep in mind that the FS community is a minority of a world-wide monority of people. Perhaps time, money and mental energy could be directed somewhere better than self-indulgent leisure activities?

Like shutting off the PC and booting up the Xbox...

[ahuimanu 50]

The OP puts me in mind of these thoughts.If Bill Gates was the flight sim advocate that kept the franchise going, he left to do other far, far worthier things. i.e., he changed his perspective and priorities and maybe (pure speculation on my part) finally realised that the world doesn't revolve around a hand full of rich kids with enough time and money to waste on a computer game. We should keep in mind that the FS community is a minority of a world-wide monority of people. Perhaps time, money and mental energy could be directed somewhere better than self-indulgent leisure activities?

Self-indulgent hobbies are always going to exist in societies with surplus. Also, you presume too much about what any of us "hard-core" simmers do with our lives.Recognizing that the hard-core base is too small does not make up for this GLARING fact: the top 10 best-selling game titles are also self-indulgent, as are games in general. Global Top 10 31st December 2011 1 Wii Just Dance 3 562,022 2 X360 Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 498,986 3 X360 Kinect Adventures! 471,873 4 PS3 Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 466,425 5 3DS Mario Kart 7 452,637 6 3DS Super Mario 3D Land 403,308 7 PC Star Wars: The Old Republic 360,551 8 X360 Battlefield 3 238,887 9 X360 Assassin's Creed: Revelations 232,684 10 Wii Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games 229,960 (source: VGChartz)All of those games are activities that represent an opportunity for someone to entertain themselves, which is an activity that will persist regardless of the state of the world. Bill G moved on because he had amassed stupendous wealth by giving rise to the PC. Bill G was both an innovator/creator and a business person. The history of the industrialized modern economies is replete with people like Bill G who turn to philanthropy after making a KILLING in the market. The rest of us do what we have to in order to also earn within the economy. As a result of our earning activities, we sometimes wish to relax and recreate by indulging in hobbies. Perhaps this fits your "rich kids" characterization, but I feel that you are grossly oversimplifying matters.Much of your argument, which I will summarize as "Bill G is now a died-in-the-wool philanthropist, who has elevated beyond such trivial things, so why not be more like him?" is somewhat of a straw man.People will play games, and the simulation category is one style of game. Games are, by their nature, self-indulgent. What some of us seem to want, is a return to form where the objective was to develop a flying title that strives to be "as real as it gets."

[Guest jahman]

It's the difference between selling a million copies and selling several thousand

1. So why didn't MS seek PCATD - PC Approved Training Device status from the FAA for FSXI ("a serious version of Flight", plus approved hardware)? There are 600,000 pilots in the U.S. alone!!!
2. What does the Elite PCATD software have over FSX? Just the expensive price?
3. Why not sell a terriffic FSXI for $500 to 1,000,000 pilots world-wide? Is half a billion not enough revenue to justify FSXI? (Not including sales of non-PCATD'd FSXI to teenager, middle-aged and over-aged pilot wannabes?)

Whatever we may care to call it, in reality it's a computer game and will be marketed as a game

1. If FSX is a game because it is PC software, then the software of a professional flight simulator is also a game.
2. But he FAA thinks Elite is not a game. What's the difference?

the world doesn't revolve around a hand full of rich kids with enough time and money to waste on a computer game.

Non-rich kids wasting time and money on non-FSX computer games outnumber rich kids wasting time on FSX by 100 to 1, or maybe even 1,000 to 1.Cheers,- jahman. Edited January 8, 2012 by jahman

[mgh 89]

If FSX is a game because it is PC software, then the software of a professional flight simulator is also a game.But he FAA thinks Elite is not a game. What's the difference?

FSX is developed and marketed as a sub-$50 game for entertainment purposes. A $15 professional flight simulator is developed and marketed for trining purposes.Elite is a complete software/hardware sytem developed and marketed for training with an entry level prices btween $3,995 and $5,600.00. That's the difference,

[Guest jahman]

FSX is developed and marketed as a sub-$50 game for entertainment purposes. A $15 professional flight simulator is developed and marketed for trining purposes.

Marketing strategy is something a memo can change in an instant, so it's not a factor.

Elite is a complete software/hardware sytem developed and marketed for training with an entry level prices btween $3,995 and $5,600.00. That's the difference,

No, Elite also sells the simulator software stand-alone without the hardware for a lot less than $4K-6K. Again, pricing strategy, like marketing strategy, is something MS can change in an instant.The link I provided shows the PCATD version of Elite costs $150 to $350 more than the non-PCATD version at $200. Assuming the cheaper upgrade price applies to a recent purchase of Elite, the PCATD version of the software would go for $200 base + $150 upgrade = $350.Add in $3,000 for the PC and monitor, $1500 for Joke/Pedals/Throttle, $600 for MCP+EFIS Modules, $1000 for Radios, Trim/Gera/Flap and buttons modules and you get to the $5,000 we serious simmers spend on hardware alone, so the $4K-6K you quote for a complete Elite PCATDwould leave most of us unfazed.Cheers,- jahman.

[N738NM 0]

Marketing strategy is something a memo can change in an instant, so it's not a factor.

@ jahman - You're getting my hopes up. I just don't think anyone in Redmond is listening.And the price tag you're talking about ($4-6K) is not out of the question. I think many of our significant others would faint if they saw how much we spent on the FS addiction since we started using. I rationalize that it's the cheapest midlife crisis around : ) Now, on that note, have you seen the JetMax stuff? http://www.jetmax.ca/

[mgh 89]

Do you really believe that there is no difference between a $50 computer game and a $15 million professional flight simulator and that they both are games?If there's a market for a million PCATD why haven't Elite and others satisfied it?An FAA certified PCATD system can be bought from between $4K-$6K so what's the point in building an uncertified one for $5K? Remember sotfware cannot be PCATD certified.EDITDeleted

Edited January 8, 2012 by mgh

[Guest jahman]

Now, on that note, have you seen the JetMax stuff?

Cool! I like the bit about "Are you tired of flying a desk?"

Do you really believe that there is no difference between a $50 computer game and a $15 million professional flight simulator and that they both are games?

Remember, we're talking about software here, so remove the cost of the hardware from the equation.If you do the numbers it's way likely MS has spent 10x more on software development than what's spent on professional simulator software.So what does a "professional" simulator for a 737 have over a top-of-the line 737 cockpit with collimated displays and built on a 6-DOF motion platform running on FSX and Project Magenta? The clickety-click of the ratchet on the Altitude knob of a real Boeing MCP? :Big Grin:Either way, what we're discussing here is a PCATD ("PC"!) for GA aircraft... Or is the Elite sim PCATD'd for a 787?

If there's a market for a million PCATD why haven't Elite and others satisfied it?

I'm not familiar with Elite, but does Elite have AI? Real-time weather? Great world-wide scenery? A huge selection of aircraft to fly? Probably not. So the appeal to pilots is limited. Metcalfe rules!

An FAA certified PCATD system can be bought from between $4K-$6K so what's the point in building an uncertified one for $5K?

No idea. The fun of it? Isn't that what we all FSX die-hards have been doing?

Remember sotfware cannot be PCATD certified.

Of course not! But a PCATD device will only be certified if it runs on a PCATD-ready simulator. Elite is PCATD-ready. FSX is not. Why not? Is XPX PCATD-ready?Cheers,- jahman. Edited January 8, 2012 by jahman

[KERNEL32 510]

Bill Was Actually Good For YouAccording to this source, Bill Gates had a degree of personal interest/affinity for Flight Simulator.

Yes indeed, here's another article I read long ago re: a book that Bill Gates was fascinated with - I did get the book and loved it!http://knol.google.com/k/felipe-bachian/microsoft-flight-simulator/2q09fs2qrfgdi/2#

[mgh 89]

Remember, we're talking about software here, so remove the cost of the hardware from the equation.

No - we're talking about what's a game and what isn't.

I'm not familiar with Elite, but does Elite have AI? Real-time weather? Great world-wide scenery? A huge selection of aircraft to fly? Probably not. So the appeal to pilots is limited. Metcalfe rules!

You linked to Elite!. Anyway the answer to be question is in the FAA requiremements:

a Instruction by an Authorized Instructor An authorized instructor must administer and properly endorse the training to satisfy the regulatory requirements. .... b. Authorized Use of a BATD to Credit Flight Experience as a Means to Obtaining Flight Experience in a Flight Simulator, FTD, or Aircraft.. NOTE: A part 141 certificated pilot school must obtain a specific authorization for the use of the ATD as part of that pilot school’s approved training curriculum. This authorization must come from the FAA FSDO assigned to that pilot school.

You need an instructor as well to get value from a PCATD!

Of course not! But a PCATD device will only be certified if it runs on a PCATD-ready simulator. Elite is PCATD-ready. FSX is not. Why not? Is XPX PCATD-ready?

FSX (or any other software) cannot be certified. Only specific combinations of hardware and software can.