NGX Feature Request (Structural Icing)

[Tabs 2,790]

Guys, tone down the flames please. If Jack wants to use this thing then that's fine - we just can't provide any support for it. I do question whether it's an accurate simulation of what icing would do to a 737, but if he's happy then great!

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Similarly to the weather radar issue, precipitation, and the lack thereof in the sim, is the downfall for this.If there's no precip, there's no real ability to get ice at a realistic rate, when compared to the true (outside the sim) weather data. If precip were modeled, we'd have a way to sim water hitting the wings and freezing. While you can approximate this (what the gauge you're all using is simulating), it's clearly not as effective as you'd want in the end.Just as I mentioned in the radar thread, it would be nice, and I'm sure it can be done by someone who tries hard enough, but again, consider the business moves here. Take a good number of your finite man hours away from developing aircraft (which is the heart of your business) to divert attention to trying to tackle FSX's terrible weather simulation, or continue developing aircraft as you've researched the weather issue and found the simulation of it lacking? Again, in a purely business sense (not emotional), you have to say you'd stick with doing what you do.If I'm a hockey player, I refine my skills and perform day in and day out. I leave improvements in my equipment to those who create equipment, and they continue to evolve the process when people say the equipment has hit its peak. Sure, I'll tweak it here and there with tape and heat, and some force, but I'm not going to go down in my basement and redesign my skates.That being said, I find it perfectly acceptable for the designers of aircraft simulation to avoid the nuances of weather simulation because it is out of their scope. Do they work hand in hand? Absolutely. Are they mutually dependent in this market? You bet. Except one has expertise that another does not. Don't spread your resources too thin on a whim. Weather is an extremely difficult thing to simulate (much less predict), so to say PMDG can do it is one thing, but at what cost?

Edited January 10, 2012 by scandinavian13

[Buzz313th 0]

Guys, tone down the flames please. If Jack wants to use this thing then that's fine - we just can't provide any support for it. I do question whether it's an accurate simulation of what icing would do to a 737, but if he's happy then great!

Thanks for the reply Ryan,Honestly I didn't notice any bad mojo round here. Or maybe I just came to the thread too late and something was deleted?It's not a 100% accurate simulation of what we would expect on an NG, but it does bring 30-50% accuracy and it's better than nothing.Just landed Denver and durring the approach, descended through an layer of severe icing and then a lower layer of freezing rain, all with the AI off. Vref at F15 for landing called for 153. To meet a propper attitude on a stabalized approach required quite a bit more throttle than normal as well as 25 more knots of airspeed. I was happy with the results. I forgot to check the ice weight for a refference before taxi and when I remembered I was already at the gate and OAT was +7, so some if not most of the ice weight had melted off.Good stuff.JB Edited January 10, 2012 by Buzz313th

[RudiJG1 172]

To be clear, Jack...you're using the FS Captain demo, right?

Edited January 10, 2012 by RudiJG1

[Buzz313th 0]

Similarly to the weather radar issue, precipitation, and the lack thereof in the sim, is the downfall for this.If there's no precip, there's no real ability to get ice at a realistic rate, when compared to the true (outside the sim) weather data. If precip were modeled, we'd have a way to sim water hitting the wings and freezing. While you can approximate this (what the gauge you're all using is simulating), it's clearly not as effective as you'd want in the end.

Kyle, just so you know some of the limitations I'm finding in this gauge....Freezing rain won't acumulate unless you are actually seeing FSX generated rain and temps are freezing. Snow has no factor.Ice from light to severe icing conditions will produce ice, but not only when you physically fly through visible moisture. You can set a cloud layer to few or overcast and as long as you are in the layer, ice will acumulate. Obviously this is a crutch of FSX and as far as I know one of the biggest limitations to the FSX weather engine. IMHO, this is ok as you don't wait to fly through visible moisture before you turn on your AI equip, you do so before.Again, for me good stuff.JB Edited January 10, 2012 by Buzz313th

[Buzz313th 0]

To be clear, Jack...you're using the FS Captain demo, right?

Hey Rudy...No, actually. I have the demo, but I'm not interested in any of the other features of FSCaptain other than the Hazards pack and since the Ice gauge we are talking about was made by the same developer as FSCaptain, it works quite well without the extra bloat.I have posted on the FSCaptain forum inquiring if the developer would be interested in making the Hazard pack available as a payware addon seperately from the other FSCapatain features. He answered another question, but did not in regards to the Hazard pack. Maybe he's thinking about it.. :)So to answer your question Rudy, I am using his Ice Gauge found here....http://library.avsim.net/download.php?DLID=135386JB

[JET 1 0]

Skimming through some of Jack's forum links I noticed that the developer of the magnificent L39 for FSX made a comment on FSX structural icing capabilities: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/323006-icing-in-fsx/page__view__findpost__p__1904237

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Freezing rain won't acumulate unless you are actually seeing FSX generated rain and temps are freezing. Snow has no factor.Ice from light to severe icing conditions will produce ice, but not only when you physically fly through visible moisture. You can set a cloud layer to few or overcast and as long as you are in the layer, ice will acumulate. Obviously this is a crutch of FSX and as far as I know one of the biggest limitations to the FSX weather engine. IMHO, this is ok as you don't wait to fly through visible moisture before you turn on your AI equip, you do so before.

That's actually kinda cool. I'm not entirely sold on it, but it's a step in the right direction. Thanks for letting me know.I guess the limitation of the precip effect only being in your immediate vicinity isn't a big issue, when the calculation of accumulation is based only on the rain that you're currently in. Who cares about the icing 100nm in front of you if you're not going to fly in it. That makes me feel a little better about it.

[Buzz313th 0]

Skimming through some of Jack's forum links I noticed that the developer of the magnificent L39 for FSX made a comment on FSX structural icing capabilities: http://forum.avsim.n...ost__p__1904237

Yeah, he's a really good guy and very level headed individual, pretty tallented video editor and extremely tallented developer. A few years ago I had the chance to sim with him on a mp server both in his L39 (Flying back seat/front seat in shared cockpit) and beside him doing formation flying and syncronized aerobatics. He's had his private for a while and when he was doing research for the project, he actually rented an L39 for a few hours so he could duplicate the flight model in FSX. Shared cockpit was a priority of his as well as smooth performance in a MP environment. He's describing the FSX vanilla icing effects. The gauge will help accelerate those effects and add Clear ice from freezing rain and on some FSX aircraft actually induce uncommanded pitch and roll events if the icing gets bad enough. I haven't tried FSCaptain yet, but that utility is suposed to add engine flameouts from ice breaking off the inlets and into the fan if the engine AI isn't on or it's failed.JB Edited January 10, 2012 by Buzz313th

[jgoggi 65]

Jack, is it possible to use and resize this gauge also in VC or only 2D panels?Thanks.

[Buzz313th 0]

I believe you would need an empty mapped area on the VC to map it to. So you could replace something, or sneak it in somewhere there is room.I'm not sure really. Haven't tried. It would be cool to somehow place it behind you as you turn left, like on the breaker panel. So as you turn around to look at the leading edges of the wings, you would see the gauge.Maybe someone else can chime in if this is possible.JB

[Buzz313th 0]

As mildly tenacious as I might be :( , I asked around other venues to see if I could find an answer to weather or not simulating a more robust icing model is possible from an addon aircraft.One person, whom I assume has experience with FS development answered...The link to the forum post below..http://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/showthread.php?p=326415#post326415So if he is correct, then it's just a matter of how badly, a developer wants to include the icing model in the aircraft package. JB

[jgoggi 65]

I believe you would need an empty mapped area on the VC to map it to. So you could replace something, or sneak it in somewhere there is room.I'm not sure really. Haven't tried.It would be cool to somehow place it behind you as you turn left, like on the breaker panel. So as you turn around to look at the leading edges of the wings, you would see the gauge.Maybe someone else can chime in if this is possible.JB

Thank you. Anyway, if I understand correctly, the visible gauge is important only if you want to know the icing situation visually, so I can put it in the 2D panel then fly in VC and forget about it. I will get ice and its effects as well, won't I?

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

I might be wrong, but it seems like ASE might also magnify the FSX icing effect, so if you're running the ice gauge and ASE, then you might have too much effect...Time to look at this ice gauge again!

[jgoggi 65]

I might be wrong, but it seems like ASE might also magnify the FSX icing effect, so if you're running the ice gauge and ASE, then you might have too much effect...Time to look at this ice gauge again!

Where should I go in ASE in order to magnify the icing effect?Thanks.