Flying the NGX yesterday and had an engine failure above some thick weather below me. Secured the #2 engine and started a descent for an emergency landing. As I was descending through the clouds I flipped on the Anti Ice and realised that it was for nothing, as FSX does not simulate an acurate acumulation rate of structural icing and that there was really no consequence for flying through it.My question...Is it possible to seperately code the effects of structural icing on a aircraft addon since FSX does a horrible job at it?If so, would PMDG consider this for any past, present or future addons? (J41, NGX, 777, -JB

Icing is not modeled. Was discussed it in some previous threads. Try a search for NGX Icing?

Icing is not modeled. Was discussed it in some previous threads. Try a search for NGX Icing?

I did, and I found that the reasoning behind no icing model was because the NG's icing equipment is so efficient that it seemed like a mute point. Is that correct? If so, what about when you have a failure that would effect the rate of heat transfer for the Anti Ice system, such as my engine failure? Or, if you have a brain fart and forget to turn it on? And what about Aircraft that are more prone to Structural Ice, like the J41?All the talk lately about "Flight" being too "Gamelike", I figured us hardcore simmers would appreciate more realism?JB

Edited January 7, 201214 yr by Buzz313th

The J41 does simulate it visually but it doesn't affect the flight model - simulating what icing actually does to a large airplane is outside the scope of what FSX is capable of I'm afraid.A 737NG is not going to be seriously affected by icing in real life unless you fly headlong into a thunderstorm anyway. The antiice systems are very good (much better than the boots on a turboprop or other small plane).

The J41 does simulate it visually but it doesn't affect the flight model - simulating what icing actually does to a large airplane is outside the scope of what FSX is capable of I'm afraid.A 737NG is not going to be seriously affected by icing in real life unless you fly headlong into a thunderstorm anyway. The antiice systems are very good (much better than the boots on a turboprop or other small plane).

Thanks for the reply Tabs, but just one further question while I got your attention...Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't structural ice on the airfoils simply decrease lift, add drag and weight? I'm not a developer, but I would assume that it is possible to change those variables dynamically in FSX?And then, structural icing on the Engine inlets, would just decrease airflow into the Fan, thus decreasing available thrust and bleed pressure at a given throttle setting, as well as increase internal temperature for certain engines? Wouldn't this also be possible to dynamically change in FSX?Again, as I mentioned above, considering how efficient the Anti Ice is on the NG, what if you lose half the system (engine failure) or you forget to turn the Anti Ice on?Thanks for any replyPS... Sorry I'm so chatty today, just sitting here burning time while downloading the A2A P-40 from their overloaded servers :)JB

Edited January 7, 201214 yr by Buzz313th

Is FSX that limited? Surely an addon can be coded to have the above variables changed during flight to simulate structural ice buildup.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkJB

I dont know about weight, but how about some kind of spoiler, uncontrollable, unannunciated, that deploys dependant on icing? Is the FS limited to single set?

I dont know about weight, but how about some kind of spoiler, uncontrollable, unannunciated, that deploys dependant on icing? Is the FS limited to single set?

I would rather see PMDG do it the right way, by dynamically changing their flight model instead of using the FSX spoilers as a bandaid. If anyone can do it, I'm sure PMDG can..I know VRS or A2A could figure out a way.Who knows? I wish I could answer my own question, but I can't. Maybe someone else thats a dev can answer whether primary flight variables can be dynamically modified in flight.JB

FSX... A FLIGHT SIMULATOR that does not simulate the most important thing during the flight: the WEATHER CONDITIONS! I start thinking that I have been an idiot to rely on this stupid game all these years... I will switch to PSX when it is done, not such scenery eye candy effects but a really PROFESSIONAL flight simulator and not a game that makes a fools of you, not simulating the MAIN thing it should simulate... Of course I am speaking of FSX itself, not the NGX, that anyway is a miracle inside this stupid game...

Hallo,Ice does change lift, weigth and drag. However thats only a smal peace of the cake. You would think that ice grows regularly over the wing so that it is 0.5 inch thik all over the wing. That wouldn't be a problem because the aerodynamics of the wings wouldn't be affected to much. However ice doesn't covers the wing regularly. The largest amounts of ice grows at the fromt edge of the wing. So that the wing gets "wider". More ice grows on the ice at the wing edge. If you can't/don't deice in beavy icing. conditions it can happen that your leadingedge will be covered by 8 inches of ice. The ice will make your wing wider. (I will add a pic when I am at home again)This will have the effect that your controlls won't do the same thing as without ice. Basicaly it is an other plane to fly. So changing drag, lift and weight is only a part of icing. And I think it is impossible to simulate this in FSX. Jonathan

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't structural ice on the airfoils simply decrease lift, add drag and weight? I'm not a developer, but I would assume that it is possible to change those variables dynamically in FSX?And then, structural icing on the Engine inlets, would just decrease airflow into the Fan, thus decreasing available thrust and bleed pressure at a given throttle setting, as well as increase internal temperature for certain engines? Wouldn't this also be possible to dynamically change in FSX?

Since Mr Maziarz said that coding non-visual effects of icing is beyond the capabilities of FSX I'm guessing the answer to both your questions is no.The only work-arounds I can imagine are the 'invisible spoiler' mentioned by Peter (a favoured way of simulating arrestor hooks and VTOL in the FS2k2/2k4 days) or to somehow dynamically rewrite the .air file outside of FSX. For the second I'm not even sure if that's possible to do fast enough to be usable and then import back into FSX without crashing the sim.

I know that the anti-icing system is there, but for some reason, I never use it. Some times is actually because I forget to use it, but most of the time it's because I know that ice is not gonna effect me anyway.

Hallo,Ice does change lift, weigth and drag. However thats only a smal peace of the cake.You would think that ice grows regularly over the wing so that it is 0.5 inch thik all over the wing. That wouldn't be a problem because the aerodynamics of the wings wouldn't be affected to much.However ice doesn't covers the wing regularly. The largest amounts of ice grows at the fromt edge of the wing. So that the wing gets "wider". More ice grows on the ice at the wing edge. If you can't/don't deice in beavy icing. conditions it can happen that your leadingedge will be covered by 8 inches of ice. The ice will make your wing wider. (I will add a pic when I am at home again)This will have the effect that your controlls won't do the same thing as without ice. Basicaly it is an other plane to fly.So changing drag, lift and weight is only a part of icing. And I think it is impossible to simulate this in FSX.Jonathan

Thanks for your reply Jonathan,Sometimes if icing gets bad enough, then yes it can propegate further down to effect movement of the control surfaces, but well before it gets that bad, you have already lost a huge portion of the lift that the airfoil was designed to create, so it's already become a dire need to clear the ice. Personally, just a dramatic change in flight dynamics would be enough to remind you to make sure you don't forget your anti ice.If you really want to nit pick here and say that it is more complicated than just decreasing airfoil performance by "Lift, Drag and weight", then lets also add in one more factor which I believe would give us a 98% complete icing simulation and that factor would be to decrease critical angle of attack, which I believe can be dynamically changed as well in FSX. Furthormore, if that factor couldn't be changed in FSX, just the decrease in lift would require most of the same corrections by the pilot to avoid consequences that would be caused by having the extra variable and dynamically increasing critical angle of attack.I remember somewhere in the forums, that someone said that the Flight model of the NGX and most of the other late PMDG aircraft are externally coded through sim connect and that they are not using the FSX flight model engine. Doesn't this fact alone free up some of the limitations imposed by FSX?ESP is FSX and FSX is ESP. I know there are training devices (Commercial Simulators) utilizing ESP that are used to train aircrews in structural icing conditions. Why can't we achieve the same, or almost the same level of simulation, especially with something as advanced as the NGX by PMDG? Wouldn't you all agree, that the NGX is the most advanced modern airliner simulation available to the consumer market? I would.JB

Edited January 8, 201214 yr by Buzz313th

Very interesting...Along with this thread, I also started another thread in the HIFI forum. In that thread someone posted a gauge file that someone made to ramp up and or simulate acceleratedl icing effects in FSX. I think I'm gonna give it a try and see how it works...The other thread is herehttp://forum.avsim.n...35#entry2218535Which will take you to herehttp://forum.avsim.n...6-icing-in-fsx/And the gauge can be found herehttp://library.avsim...=root&Go=SearchOr just search the avsim file library for "icev10.zip by Charles Owen"If it works well enough, it would be nice to see if can it can be placed into the NGX panel.After looking at the xml file for this gauge, it apears that it only changes the dynamic weight of the aircraft. It does not change any of the aerodynamic variables. Changing weight values as per station load, might wreak havok on the NGX since it's station loads I believe are extrenally coded. JB

Edited January 8, 201214 yr by Buzz313th

Hallo Jack,As soon as you will notice a weight, AOA or drag change you probably will also notice that a movement of the yoke won't result in the same action as without ice. This is not a reason of a frozen controll surface, no it is a reason because of changed airflow over the wing. When you are flying it is quiet uncommen that a controll surface will be affected by ice. May it would if you spend enought time in icing conditions, however you can't do that because you will have fallen out of the sky at such a point.This pic shows where the ice will grow, and where it probably won't:This is one of the reasons why only the front edge of the wing is covered by ice protection systems, because only there will be ice.The ice changes the airflow over the wing and so you will notice a change in your controll inputs and what the plane does probably before or at the same time as you notice that your weigth, drag and lift has changed. So if ice would be simulated also change of the controls should be simulated. However, I understand that you won't be able to simulate this in FSX.Jonathan