talking to ATC (realworld & VATSIM)

[flyguy172 0]

i love listening to liveatc.net, especially on my VATSIM flights when I'm stuck on unicomi started paying attention to what pilots say when contacting ATC as a way of brushing up on my own contact to ATC on VATSIMtonight, i listened to all of the live feeds that were up from the KSFO area. the results were interesting.all that is written below is what i heard and copied onto notepad from my headset. i only used 'Delta2632' as a default callsign to simplify, the actual transmissions were from all types of aircraft and airlinesCLEARANCE[full readback] - thought it's interesting that they do full readbacks in the realworld, but on VATSIM i hear it is frowned on since it cloggs the freqSFO8, 3065, Delta2632 - just the departure SID & SQK code. strangely i never heard just a squawk code read backGROUND (outbound)frisco ground, Delta2632 for taxiground Delta2632 ready at terminal 1TOWER (outbound)over to departure, Delta2632departure, Delta263225.8 for Delta2632Delta2632 - i guess they use this when they have a high workload? just their callsign and they switch to the next freqDEPARTUREnorcal departure, Delta2632 is 1.5 for 3,000departure, Delta2632 1.5 for 3,000CENTERoakland center, Delta2632 out of 11,000 for 190oakland center, Delta2632 is out of 330 for 240oakland center, Delta2632 flight level 360APPROACHnorcal approach, Delta2632 out of 17,000 for 11,000approach, Delta2632 thru 15,000 for 11TOWER (inbound)tower, Delta2632 for 28Ltower, Delta2632 with you on the ILS for 28LGROUND (inbound)ground, Delta2632 off of 28L for gate 87Frisco ground, Delta2632 on E for 87all in all, very educational. very different from what i normally hear on VATSIMhere are a few things i never heard on the real world ATC that i hear all the time on VATSIM:- ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)- 10 mile final rwy X (i never hear the distance given in calls to the tower in real ATC)- "with you" (i hear this all the time on VATSIM, but in the real world pilots seem to keep to the facts)i'm sure there are more things people say on VATSIM that aren't used in the real world, but those 3 i hear a lot.in the real world, it seems that pilots use the word "for" a lot. Delta2632 "for" 28L / "for" taxi / "for" gate 87 / "for" etc.interesting stuff

[audiohavoc 24]

In the real world, short, simple, and only necessary details is the name of the game. VATSIM is a mess, particularly with UNICOM announcements. Most of the pilots make position announcements that are basically useless, such as "KLAX trfc, inbound for 24R on the SEAVU2 ARR". Just have to remember that it's fun.

[BillC 135]

Abbreviated clearance readbacks are very much a Vatsim-US thing. Over in europe you're expected to read back in full.

- ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)

That one bugs me as well, I don't know where people have picked it up from but it is pointless.

- 10 mile final rwy X (i never hear the distance given in calls to the tower in real ATC)

Hmmm, that depends (on Vatsim). If there is no Centre or Approach above then on joining TWR from Unicom there is a possibility that they havn't yet spotted you inbound if you're on a long final due to being busy with a/c in the circuit or on the ground. Other than that it's also pretty pointless.

- "with you" (i hear this all the time on VATSIM, but in the real world pilots seem to keep to the facts)

Another one that bugs me too. I don't know where they've picked that up from. Callsign, flight level and position should be all that's required. As for the "for" thing that is very sloppy indeed basically because it could be confused with a 4, "by the book" r/t is designed to avoid such possibility of confusion.

[Spidierox 4]

- ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)

ready to copy and requested got mixed I am afraidICAO (JAR COMMS) :> requesting for IFR clearance as filed.Pilot request to approve a IFR FILED flightplan.Delivery should reply :> Are you ready to copy the clearance ?Maybe google around for aviation communication to find more about it, make sure the source is trustworhty (FAA & ICAO - JAR)Must say I was suprised that readbacks are frowned upon with VATSIM as in their manual they stress the importance of readback. Also as VATIM tries to simulatereal world aviation, good communication is emphasized for obvious safety reasons. To go short: wherever you heard of this frowning I don't think this is the correct attitudenor the policy of VATSIM.Beware that many are not real controller nor never flown an aircraft (hence and never did a COMMS exam) and many many mistakes are made.Someone saying that a readback cloggs the freq, might just be the person to be frowned upon. Edited January 31, 2012 by Spidierox

[sekos 0]

i love listening to liveatc.net, especially on my VATSIM flights when I'm stuck on unicomi started paying attention to what pilots say when contacting ATC as a way of brushing up on my own contact to ATC on VATSIMtonight, i listened to all of the live feeds that were up from the KSFO area. the results were interesting.all that is written below is what i heard and copied onto notepad from my headset. i only used 'Delta2632' as a default callsign to simplify, the actual transmissions were from all types of aircraft and airlinesCLEARANCE[full readback] - thought it's interesting that they do full readbacks in the realworld, but on VATSIM i hear it is frowned on since it cloggs the freqSFO8, 3065, Delta2632 - just the departure SID & SQK code. strangely i never heard just a squawk code read backGROUND (outbound)frisco ground, Delta2632 for taxiground Delta2632 ready at terminal 1TOWER (outbound)over to departure, Delta2632departure, Delta263225.8 for Delta2632Delta2632 - i guess they use this when they have a high workload? just their callsign and they switch to the next freqDEPARTUREnorcal departure, Delta2632 is 1.5 for 3,000departure, Delta2632 1.5 for 3,000CENTERoakland center, Delta2632 out of 11,000 for 190oakland center, Delta2632 is out of 330 for 240oakland center, Delta2632 flight level 360APPROACHnorcal approach, Delta2632 out of 17,000 for 11,000approach, Delta2632 thru 15,000 for 11TOWER (inbound)tower, Delta2632 for 28Ltower, Delta2632 with you on the ILS for 28LGROUND (inbound)ground, Delta2632 off of 28L for gate 87Frisco ground, Delta2632 on E for 87all in all, very educational. very different from what i normally hear on VATSIMhere are a few things i never heard on the real world ATC that i hear all the time on VATSIM:- ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)- 10 mile final rwy X (i never hear the distance given in calls to the tower in real ATC)- "with you" (i hear this all the time on VATSIM, but in the real world pilots seem to keep to the facts)i'm sure there are more things people say on VATSIM that aren't used in the real world, but those 3 i hear a lot.in the real world, it seems that pilots use the word "for" a lot. Delta2632 "for" 28L / "for" taxi / "for" gate 87 / "for" etc.interesting stuff

HiAs real controller but in europe i will give u few notes on this and how its different here than in states.[full readback] - thought it's interesting that they do full readbacks in the realworld, but on VATSIM i hear it is frowned on since it cloggs the freqSFO8, 3065, Delta2632 - just the departure SID & SQK code. strangely i never heard just a squawk code read backFull readback- I need that all the time and its not very unusual that pilot will only say number and not proper callsing. Actually i had to remind quite a few of them that full callsing is needed because he was not the only one with same number on my freq.SQK number- it very much depands on situation there are many ways how to say that and its quite fun because it will tell where did the pilot learn to fly. Americans and now a days many chinase and russians (who got their boeing rateing it states) wil say "in the box". Europians are more up to rules so simple sqk 1234 or sometimes "comming down"Problem with not a full readback here is that many pilots will take it as a freq. If u have a new sqk for them and its 3345 the will try to tune on 133,45 and that is something that happens because many pilots and atcos are not saying the first number 1 with freq so if u want to sent a/c over to freq 133,45 they use just "baw1 call 3345". Thats not a problem for europeans but many pilots from asia can get quite lost in this.TOWER (outbound)over to departure, Delta2632departure, Delta263225.8 for Delta2632Delta2632 - i guess they use this when they have a high workload? just their callsign and they switch to the next freqThis way of changing a/c over should be used only again with lets say "local" pilots and companies they know what the freq are and r prepared for it but for others its not a very good way of doing it. Ok lets say its published that dep freq is 133,45 so everyone should now it. Problems is not everypilot reads notam etc or they even have an old (looks dangerous but it happens a lot trust me) and what if when u sit on twr (and u dont have a really good picture what is going on dep) and u use this way everytime. It might come to a moment when dep will really need this a/c for turn or rate anything and the pilot will be looking for the freq for 5 mins. Im not saying it will lead to loss of seperation but it might ruin deps plans.So from my point of view always say freq its not that much time. One more thing dont know how its in states but we change dep freqs like 10 times a day so it wont work here.Only thing we use to free a freq is "baw1 monitor 133,45" so he doesnt block it with his report and just waits for atco to call him.norcal departure, Delta2632 is 1.5 for 3,000departure, Delta2632 1.5 for 3,000Really hate this. even worst is "down from 36 for 16" it leads to confusion. This happend to me once an american pilots gave me this exact readback than he descended to 16450ft. I told him confirm at FL160 and he sad no we are at 16 thousand so i had to remind him that he is in europe. This would never happen if the readback is would propper. So always: out of 4 thousand for 10 thousand. full readback in a way to avoid problems.ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)we use that for vfr changing to ifr well not exactly this but we say: Cleared to blabla via flight plan route. That is almost the same and only reason for this is that most of these guys dont fly ifr very often so its a little reminder that now he is ifr and he should fly to its first point in his flp.Looks like a babysitting really but u wouldnt belive how many of these guys are flying to FIR exit point even when they are on IFR rules (habit is a habit).10 mile final rwy X (i never hear the distance given in calls to the tower in real ATC)U can hear that here. We use a shortcut for a/c approaching one of our airfields and that is "continue to 10 miles final rwy 10" and his report to twr is "10 miles final rwy 10""with you" (i hear this all the time on VATSIM, but in the real world pilots seem to keep to the facts)Not very common but it happens. Maybe an ex-vatsim pilots:)

[scandinavian13 5,192]

- ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)- 10 mile final rwy X (i never hear the distance given in calls to the tower in real ATC)- "with you" (i hear this all the time on VATSIM, but in the real world pilots seem to keep to the facts)i'm sure there are more things people say on VATSIM that aren't used in the real world, but those 3 i hear a lot.in the real world, it seems that pilots use the word "for" a lot. Delta2632 "for" 28L / "for" taxi / "for" gate 87 / "for" etc.

Yeah, there are a ton of VATSIMisms out there. The "as filed" thing drives me up the wall. In the States, you never hear it from a pilot. "As filed" is supposed to be a controller reply if you are actually cleared as you had filed. By filing a flight plan, you're essentially requesting that you want to fly that route, so requesting your plan "as filed" is redundant from the pilot perspective. If you listen to how the default FSX (FS9/2004, FS8/2002) ATC request goes, the pilot voice uses "as filed" at the end. It also uses "request taxi, IFR," which is something VATSIM pilots also use, which also drives me up the wall a bit.As far as the distance thing goes, it's not necessarily improper, but it does clog the frequency slightly. When you're IFR, approach is vectoring you in generally on an extended centerline, so tower doesn't need to look around a whole bunch to find you - you're right behind the last guy who checked in (and most of the towers you hear on LiveATC have some sort of radar display that can be used as an aid to situational awareness). If you listen to a tower heavily trafficked by VFR (KDVT is a great example), you'll hear lots of landmarks (look on sectionals for magenta flags) or position reports. When you're VFR, you could be coming in at any angle."With you" can be heard occasionally outside of VATSIM, but when you're taught radio technique in flight school, they teach brevity, as mentioned. All you need on a handoff is callsign and altitude. Without a handoff (or non-radar), it's callsign, altitude and location (preferably off of a VOR or airport, not one of the infinite fixes that dot the US).As far as readbacks go, there is no requirement that the readback be a full readback. The pilot may simply respond with the squawk code and callsign, but that's sacrificing some of your CYA if anything happens. If I (as a pilot) read back the whole clearance: "O'Hare, via initial heading 185, vectors Armel, as filed. 5000 initial, FL360, departure 118.95, squawk 2142, United 962" then I'm somewhat protected if any of that is incorrect and the controller doesn't correct me. However, if I only say "squawk 2142, United 962," I don't give the controller a chance to correct me if I had copied something down incorrectly, so it's all on me if I do something wrong.

[captainklm 1]

Yeah, there are a ton of VATSIMisms out there. The "as filed" thing drives me up the wall. In the States, you never hear it from a pilot. "As filed" is supposed to be a controller reply if you are actually cleared as you had filed. By filing a flight plan, you're essentially requesting that you want to fly that route, so requesting your plan "as filed" is redundant from the pilot perspective. If you listen to how the default FSX (FS9/2004, FS8/2002) ATC request goes, the pilot voice uses "as filed" at the end. It also uses "request taxi, IFR," which is something VATSIM pilots also use, which also drives me up the wall a bit.As far as the distance thing goes, it's not necessarily improper, but it does clog the frequency slightly. When you're IFR, approach is vectoring you in generally on an extended centerline, so tower doesn't need to look around a whole bunch to find you - you're right behind the last guy who checked in (and most of the towers you hear on LiveATC have some sort of radar display that can be used as an aid to situational awareness). If you listen to a tower heavily trafficked by VFR (KDVT is a great example), you'll hear lots of landmarks (look on sectionals for magenta flags) or position reports. When you're VFR, you could be coming in at any angle."With you" can be heard occasionally outside of VATSIM, but when you're taught radio technique in flight school, they teach brevity, as mentioned. All you need on a handoff is callsign and altitude. Without a handoff (or non-radar), it's callsign, altitude and location (preferably off of a VOR or airport, not one of the infinite fixes that dot the US).As far as readbacks go, there is no requirement that the readback be a full readback. The pilot may simply respond with the squawk code and callsign, but that's sacrificing some of your CYA if anything happens. If I (as a pilot) read back the whole clearance: "O'Hare, via initial heading 185, vectors Armel, as filed. 5000 initial, FL360, departure 118.95, squawk 2142, United 962" then I'm somewhat protected if any of that is incorrect and the controller doesn't correct me. However, if I only say "squawk 2142, United 962," I don't give the controller a chance to correct me if I had copied something down incorrectly, so it's all on me if I do something wrong.

Hi Kyle, Im a fairly new vatsim pilot with around 500 hours but I need 1 last clearing up in my knowledge and you being a vatsim controller are the perfect person to ask. Im having trouble with what to do at decent time1) do I request decent or wait till they tell me to2) with arrival routes they give you, they give the pilots an arrival route but that arrival route has more to it e.g NORKU- NORKU1A NORKU1BHow do we know which one to use and when do they assign it to you? This is the part which Im really not getting, otherwise Im good at all the other stuff

[FLEX1978 373]

Until Kyle turns up -1.This depends on quite a few factors, If I am getting close to TOD and still not heard anything then I will request it, 90% of the time they call me or say descend at discretion if the traffic is light2.It depends where in the world you are flying and sometimes the STAR is specific to the runway. I tend to plan for the most likely Runway and STAR in use from experience from prior flights,and use the secondary flightplan to have another runway STAR on standby for a quick switch. Approach will give you the STAR and expected runway well in advance. I also tend to listen to traffic ahead to figure out what runway/STAR is being used.You should always have up to date charts with you and the latest Airac when flying online or things can get confusing really quick.Regards

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Hi Kyle, Im a fairly new vatsim pilot with around 500 hours but I need 1 last clearing up in my knowledge and you being a vatsim controller are the perfect person to ask. Im having trouble with what to do at decent time1) do I request decent or wait till they tell me to2) with arrival routes they give you, they give the pilots an arrival route but that arrival route has more to it e.g NORKU- NORKU1A NORKU1BHow do we know which one to use and when do they assign it to you? This is the part which Im really not getting, otherwise Im good at all the other stuff

Edit: Rob - you beat me by seconds!Joe,I control in the States, where the pilot files the STAR, but over in Europe, it's assigned by ATC. When you're over here, file the STAR (really, your best bet is to use routes off of Flightaware) in your flight plan, and make sure to throw that in the FMC before you even leave the ground. For those STARs that require you to select the runway, select the runway that'll likely have a lower/earlier crossing restriction. In general, that's the arrival that's more in line with your direction of flight (you could almost land straight in). As an example, Miami has an arrival that uses something like 12,000 when landing to the east and 10,000 when landing to the west coming from over the ocean. Since 10,000 is the lower restriction, use the HILEY2 STAR for Runway 26s/27. If they're landing to the east (as they normally are), all you need to do is shallow out the descent when approach tells you to expect one direction or the other (or better yet, from the ATIS). Be careful, though, as some STARs in the FMS do not include the crossing restrictions (if you look at the charts, most of the time they say "expect to cross at..." it isn't hard set in the FMC, though it is on occasion).As far as descent goes, if Center is on, you should wait for them to tell you to descend. A good center controller will simply say "cross FALKO at 10,000, Dulles altimeter 30.29." That's an implicit descent instruction, meaning descend wherever you need to to hit FALKO at 10. If you think the controller is pressing it too close to your T/D say "Washington Center, DAL1942 requests lower" (don't say "we're at T/D," it's not improper, it's just something not generally heard RW). Keep in mind that your FMC does not calculate airspace shelves the controller must avoid and so on, so don't get accusatory as some VATSIM pilots sometimes do. People forget sometimes, so a polite reminder is good enough to get you headed down. Edited January 31, 2012 by scandinavian13

[vlanz 0]

Personally I always read back full clearance, " Miami One departure Mnate transition As Filed maintain 5000 expect 260 in 10 departure on 25.5 squack 1234". Say "with you" i.e " songbird 1801 with you out of 10 and a half for two six O direct maxim".. i keep the hand offs short and sweet when there is alot of traffic on freq " tower for 1801, seeyaa!"

[Houghton11 12]

In Canada r/w flight service gets pretty grumpy with you if you don't basically repeat the IFR clearance word for word...they especially look for the "Cleared to the (destination) airport via..." rtc etc.

[Hillblom86 3]

In Sweden a clearance is not valid unless the pilot do a full readback.The things that requires read-back (at least in Sweden):QNHTransition levelRoute (for example SID/STAR)Alltitude-, speed-, heading instructionsTake-off/landing-clearanceRwy in useAnything involving the rwy (cross, hold, line up, back-track and so on...)Transponder codeThe freq when requested to switch freq

[scandinavian13 5,192]

In Canada r/w flight service gets pretty grumpy with you if you don't basically repeat the IFR clearance word for word...they especially look for the "Cleared to the (destination) airport via..." rtc etc.

If I remember correctly, Canadian FSS's deal with a lot of non-radar procedures, which means they can't see you on a scope. That in mind, I can totally understand their wanting you to be 100% in line with what they told you to fly for predictability. It's just that extra layer of protection, making sure we're on the same page. If I'm separating aircraft based on me calculating where you are, I need to be sure you're flying what I told you to.I don't know much about the stuff up in Canada, but I assume there's a lot of space up there that doesn't have radar coverage, especially as you go farther north. Edited January 31, 2012 by scandinavian13

[captainklm 1]

would I tell them "approaching TOD requesting decent" something like that?

[captainklm 1]

And Im having trouble understanding the difference between a STAR and TransitionAny youtube tutorials or something out there about arrival procedures on vatsim?