would I tell them "approaching TOD requesting decent" something like that?

Avoid mentioning "top of descent" altogether:I actually just wrote something on the topic over at VATSIM because I got tired of hearing it (if you don't enter in the expected crossing restriction on one of the STARs around Washington Center, the plane calculates an early descent).http://forums.vatsim...php?f=8&t=60915

And Im having trouble understanding the difference between a STAR and TransitionAny youtube tutorials or something out there about arrival procedures on vatsim?

A STAR is the full procedure. If you look at the SHNON2 STAR into IAD, you'll see it picks up at several places: Beckley (BKW), Charleston (HVQ), and Kessel (ESL). Those are the transitions. Most often, dispatchers will plan your route of flight to end at one of those transitions, where you transition from your route onto the STAR. The reason they're there is to make sure you can use the STAR from multiple directions. ESL is what you'd use when coming from the midwest/Chicago area, whereas when coming over from the likes of the lower midwest/St.Louis area, you'd use HVQ or BKW.

Edited February 1, 201214 yr by scandinavian13

If I remember correctly, Canadian FSS's deal with a lot of non-radar procedures, which means they can't see you on a scope. That in mind, I can totally understand their wanting you to be 100% in line with what they told you to fly for predictability. It's just that extra layer of protection, making sure we're on the same page. If I'm separating aircraft based on me calculating where you are, I need to be sure you're flying what I told you to.I don't know much about the stuff up in Canada, but I assume there's a lot of space up there that doesn't have radar coverage, especially as you go farther north.

Well FSS is not supposed to have radar coverage hahah...although they are starting to get supplementary feeds from centres. Basically the radar coverage ends a couple hundred clicks north of Beaver Lodge with some remote sites up in Whitehorse and Yellowknife. Just to clarify, FSS does not "Control" airspace or anything, it's not their job to provide any sort of separation or guidance. They provide clearances and in the case of IFR stuff they are basically on the line with centre getting the clearance. We like to think their insistence for fancy readbacks is to brighten up their day a bit ;)They are an advisory service only. There's some grumpy ones out there, who try and control every once a while (allegedly) although the majority i've talked to are cheerful and do a bang up job.

One thing about reading back call sign, departure and squawk only, at large airports (like SFO) many airlines will get their clearance through the ACARS in the plane. Basically an email of the clearance. They are then only required to read those 3 things back to the Clearance Delivery controller.

If I remember correctly, Canadian FSS's deal with a lot of non-radar procedures, which means they can't see you on a scope. That in mind, I can totally understand their wanting you to be 100% in line with what they told you to fly for predictability. It's just that extra layer of protection, making sure we're on the same page. If I'm separating aircraft based on me calculating where you are, I need to be sure you're flying what I told you to.I don't know much about the stuff up in Canada, but I assume there's a lot of space up there that doesn't have radar coverage, especially as you go farther north.

I dont know about other parts of the world, but as a RW charter pilot in canada, an IFR clearance must be fully read back when at an uncontrolled airport. Only at a controlled airport can you read back only the sqwk code IF you have a SID.Alex

Edited February 1, 201214 yr by jalexb88

Well FSS is not supposed to have radar coverage hahah...although they are starting to get supplementary feeds from centres. Basically the radar coverage ends a couple hundred clicks north of Beaver Lodge with some remote sites up in Whitehorse and Yellowknife.Just to clarify, FSS does not "Control" airspace or anything, it's not their job to provide any sort of separation or guidance. They provide clearances and in the case of IFR stuff they are basically on the line with centre getting the clearance. We like to think their insistence for fancy readbacks is to brighten up their day a bit ;)They are an advisory service only. There's some grumpy ones out there, who try and control every once a while (allegedly) although the majority i've talked to are cheerful and do a bang up job.

Thanks for the clarification. I figured they'd have the same purpose up there as they do down here, but I don't know much about life up north, so I was trying to make the pieces fit.

When getting clearance I don't say ''Requesting IFR Clearance.....etc''I give ATC all the information they need, example.EGLL-RJAA:''Good evening Clearance Delivery, Speedbird9J on Stand 545, Boeing 777-300ER with Information Lima requesting clearance to Tokyo, 1018 (QNH, HpA)''Speedbird 9J Cleared to Tokyo, Brookmans Park 6 Juliet (BPK6J) departure, Squawk 1516''''Cleared to Tokyo, BPK6J, 1516 Speedbird9J''I use terminology used in the UK as I'm British, I've been listening to ATC for a while. I'm doing my Private over here in California and they work somewhat different to Europe.Thing I found is confidence, just keep doing it, keep speaking clear & don't talk so fast. ATC need to know you understand, don't think they're being I TRIED TO USE A PROFANITY HERE - AREN'T I STUPID!s when you miss something out and they comment on you not saying it.The way I say clearances is how I say it everywhere, every Airport because even if some of the Information is not required it's still good to confirm it. Flying from the US I normally write the clearance down as they give lots of information, don't try and remember it because they don't in the real world!In Flight try and learn to remember the frequencies and try not to look for them on Squawk Box but as I say it's a learning curve, you wont be perfect. Even experienced real world pilots mess up, even the controllers. Just VATSIM is a little full with ''Try hard's'' at times. Now when reading back the frequency I personally say it ALL. I know mostly the Americans would say 126.820 ''Twenty Six point Eighty Two''. I would say ''One Two Six Decimal Eight Two Zero'' even when doing my training here all of the controllers shorten it out but I still say it all.Normally the center you're speaking to if available give you assigned STAR's. Example for LHR:''LON CTR: Speedbird94 expect an OCK2F for Runway 27L''Then they normally say something along the lines off,''LON CTR: Speedbird94 when ready, descend FL140 Level by BEDEK ''. So you would Confirm it then once you hit Top of Decent on your ND you descend to FL140 and best to let ATC that you are doing so.They might tell you a bit later to expect Vectors, example:''Speedbird94 leave LAM heading 070 expect Vectors for the ILS Approach Runway 27L'' ''Speedbird94 descend to Altitude 3,000, reduce speed 180, turn left heading 180 report LOC established RWY27L'' so you would descend in V/S or FLCH and arm the LOC not APP. Once reported LOC Established ATC for LHR would say something along the lines off:''Speedbird94 Descend on the Glide Path, reduce your speed 160knts till 4DME (LON DME)'' The thing I mess up on is when flying to other countries saying ''Flight Level'' for an Altitude that is below the Transition Altitude but just got to keep remembering the Transition Altitude for the Country you're flying too as it varies through the world.The past couple of Months I've been following Real World procedures as i'm doing my PPL then my ATPL etc so could say i'm practicing.I SUCKED when I started on Vatsim, seriously! I learn't by others too! The latest thing I got challenged at was an Oceanic Clearance which is surprisingly easy but there are rarely Oceanic Controllers online..Good luck and keep practicing!

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by LukePabari

keep speaking clear & don't talk so fast.

oh god this!lately i have run into quite a few controllers around KLAX and KSFO on VATSIM who think that talking as fast as they can through an instruction means it's more professionalone young voice on a ground frequency (pretty sure it was KSFO) read my clearance so fast i could hear him suck in a breath at the end because he was about to pass outi had to tell the guy to repeat it slower, he sounded offended as if all clearances is supposed to sound like thati was almost tempted to tell him to listen to liveatc.net or another live atc feedand then the worst is the opposite of that, when you get a pilot on the frequency that is obviously inexperienced and drags out a clearance readback to almost a minute long when the center/approach controller already has his hands fulli don't mind that there are new people on VATSIM, i was new once also, but you should practice in non-busy airspace so you don't ruin other pilot's atc experiencejust my 2 cents

oh god this!lately i have run into quite a few controllers around KLAX and KSFO on VATSIM who think that talking as fast as they can through an instruction means it's more professionalone young voice on a ground frequency (pretty sure it was KSFO) read my clearance so fast i could hear him suck in a breath at the end because he was about to pass outi had to tell the guy to repeat it slower, he sounded offended as if all clearances is supposed to sound like thati was almost tempted to tell him to listen to liveatc.net or another live atc feedand then the worst is the opposite of that, when you get a pilot on the frequency that is obviously inexperienced and drags out a clearance readback to almost a minute long when the center/approach controller already has his hands fulli don't mind that there are new people on VATSIM, i was new once also, but you should practice in non-busy airspace so you don't ruin other pilot's atc experiencejust my 2 cents

Yeah talking fast does not make you professional one bit. I sometimes talk fast but I talk fast a lot in general, you will find a lot of us Brits do ha! But I don't do it on purpose. Either way I'll make everything clear! Saves so much time than repeating all the time although some of the guys over Europe can be tricky to understand but they are very understanding about it and don't mind repeating stuff.I know EXACTLY what you mean on some Pilots not knowing nothing. I was on Approach to EGLL and he was going to give me a 15 Mile Final as requested, Director was so busy dealing with these two muppets that were messing around on the Clearances and the Taxi Instructions. So I just wrote to him what I was doing then he finally got back to me on Finals for my Landing Clearance, we had a laugh when I got on Stand ha! Times like that I wish only Tower, Ground & Delivery done ground ops instead of Directors/APP and Centers as well! I know for sure if I pass all my training I'll be glad to see the back of VATSIM.

Why doesn't VATSIM just do a PDC clearance system, I much prefer getting clearances through PDC than doing so over voice especially at airports like LaGuardia on a big push where you can't get a word in at any time due to all the clearances. It wouldn't be too difficult to implement, and it would be more realistic for most airlines.

well i just read an article explaining why PDCs are bad - http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/publications/directline/dl5_pdc.htmanyway, how would you implement it over VATSIM? text clearance only from the controller while everything else is voice?

Just to make sure I know everything ok Ill make a scenario and say what you should sayScenario- KLM602 headed to EHAM with last waypoint being TOPPA using charts http://www2.vlieghinder.nl/knipsels_pmach/pdfs/EHAM.pdfAMS CENTRE: KLM602 DECEND AND MAINTAIN FL070, TOPPA1A ARRIVAL, EXPECT ILS RWY 36CKLM602: ROGER DECEND AND MAINTAIN FL070, TOPPA1A ARRIVAL, EXPECT ILS RWY 36C FOR LANDING

Yeah but I would leave out ROGER and LANDING - just keep it to the point, they know your landing

hehehehe thanks for the advice, so its altitude first then arrival route+runway

altitude first then arrival route+runway

We don't care about the order really, as long as the parts are there. Ideally read it back in the order we gave it, as it's easier on the brain to process subconsciously, but we're really listening for the key parts, which are really only the numbers/info.You could say "FL070, TOPPA1A, ILS36C, KLM602" and we'd get the message. Definitely leave out the 'roger' and the 'landing' though. It's not at all necessary.

anyway, how would you implement it over VATSIM? text clearance only from the controller while everything else is voice?

Well yeah, Pre-departure Clearances are text and everything else in communications is voice in the real world as well. Interesting article, in Canada you still have to contact clearance delivery with an assigned code they give you with the PDC to acknowledge you received it. So your call would be "Toronto Clearance airline 3535 with information Tango Indentifier 1234A" He simply acknowledges with telling you who to contact when ready to go. Other large airports do somethings similar, or the tower may confirm your departure in the takeoff clearance, which has to be read back verbatim so they can check for errors that way. But it really does make life easier.Erik

Edited February 2, 201214 yr by otts688