talking to ATC (realworld & VATSIM)

[Check_Airman 3]

This post really highlights how bad US pilots are on the radio.

CLEARANCE[full readback] - thought it's interesting that they do full readbacks in the realworld, but on VATSIM i hear it is frowned on since it cloggs the freqSFO8, 3065, Delta2632 - just the departure SID & SQK code. strangely i never heard just a squawk code read backGROUND (outbound)frisco ground, Delta2632 for taxiground Delta2632 ready at terminal 1TOWER (outbound)over to departure, Delta2632departure, Delta263225.8 for Delta2632 should be 1-2-5 point 8, not just 25.8. Everybody know's the "1" is understood, but it's still in the books, so this bit is non-standardDelta2632 - i guess they use this when they have a high workload? just their callsign and they switch to the next freqDEPARTUREnorcal departure, Delta2632 is 1.5 for 3,000departure, Delta2632 1.5 for 3,000 this should be 1 thousand 5 hundred, climbing 3 thousandCENTERoakland center, Delta2632 out of 11,000 for 190 this should be "DAL 2632, one one thousand, climbing FL190"oakland center, Delta2632 is out of 330 for 240oakland center, Delta2632 flight level 360APPROACHnorcal approach, Delta2632 out of 17,000 for 11,000approach, Delta2632 thru 15,000 for 11 same as aboveTOWER (inbound)tower, Delta2632 for 28Ltower, Delta2632 with you on the ILS for 28L IDK which idiot came up with "with you" and "checking in", but it's decidedly non-standardGROUND (inbound)ground, Delta2632 off of 28L for gate 87Frisco ground, Delta2632 on E for 87all in all, very educational. very different from what i normally hear on VATSIMhere are a few things i never heard on the real world ATC that i hear all the time on VATSIM:- ready to copy IFR clearance to XYC as filed (no one in the real world says "as filed" as far as i can tell!)- 10 mile final rwy X (i never hear the distance given in calls to the tower in real ATC)- "with you" (i hear this all the time on VATSIM, but in the real world pilots seem to keep to the facts)i'm sure there are more things people say on VATSIM that aren't used in the real world, but those 3 i hear a lot.in the real world, it seems that pilots use the word "for" a lot. Delta2632 "for" 28L / "for" taxi / "for" gate 87 / "for" etc.interesting stuff

Vatsim sometimes gets tiring because of all the folks out there who try to sound "cool" like the stupid US pilots they hear on liveatc. The funny thing is that it's even more important to stick to standard RT on vatsim, as the audio quality invariably isn't as good as RW VHF communication.Paul

[ryanbatc 12,862]

Vatsim sometimes gets tiring because of all the folks out there who try to sound "cool" like the stupid US pilots they hear on liveatc. The funny thing is that it's even more important to stick to standard RT on vatsim, as the audio quality invariably isn't as good as RW VHF communication.Paul

Bleh there's no required phraseology for US pilots... plenty of recommended/AIM stuff. Heck I've even used "point" describing altitude as a controller... sometimes it happens.

[NoahBryant 26]

Paul - you are to pilots as I am to controllers. I'm one of the biggest phraseology nitpickers out there!+1

[Check_Airman 3]

Let's be clear, I'm not a phraseology ######. I realize that there are busy periods in the cockpit and in the control room, and when that happens, people sometimes depart standard RT. No major problem there. What irks me is the pilot who never uses standard RT, and who insists it's ok to say "departure, ABC123 with you checkin' in one and a half for 5".That grinds my gears.Paul

[captainklm 1]

Thanks for all that help! I'm flying from EHAM to KLAX on vatsim. How do you contact supervisors on vatsim? Is it via FSINN?

[ryanbatc 12,862]

Let's be clear, I'm not a phraseology ######. I realize that there are busy periods in the cockpit and in the control room, and when that happens, people sometimes depart standard RT. No major problem there. What irks me is the pilot who never uses standard RT, and who insists it's ok to say "departure, ABC123 with you checkin' in one and a half for 5".That grinds my gears.Paul

Haha I hear ya - mines usually very good but a lot of the guys I work with don't use great phraseology... sometimes it rubs off. Where do you fly out of? I'm in KDLH.

[Sekstifire 10]

Thanks for all that help! I'm flying from EHAM to KLAX on vatsim. How do you contact supervisors on vatsim? Is it via FSINN?

.wallop <reason>

.wallop need help, unresponsive controller

That would be in the chat box of your pilot client.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Sekstifire

[Check_Airman 3]

I don't typically have any problems with controllers. The only ones who seem to use non standard RT are the military ATCO's and the ones at the sleepy class D facilities.Most of my flying has been out of ORD.Paul

[ryanbatc 12,862]

ones at the sleepy class D facilities.

lol that's me! we don't sleep of course... Edited February 2, 2012 by ryanbatcund

[JC75 22]

Just an additional comment to add to this, checking in on the tower frequency with your range isn't actually a bad thing, although pretty much all major towers will have what's called an ATM which is a radar feed, so they know exactly your range, a lot of what's heard on the radio helps build situational awareness, for other airfield users and pilots. An example of real world events.A dh8d and e195 had pushed back in a remote cul-de-sac not visible to gmc, however the airline had switched aircraft doing the routes but not updated the flightplans, so correct callsigns but different ac type. The ATCO thought the e195 was in front of the dh8 as indicated on strips. A third aircraft was waiting to go into the cul de sac, and was told "after the dh8, taxi to stand" taxi clearance was thn given to both aircraft in the cul de sac, at which point because the e195 was actually second in the taxi, he realised that there must be some error as had heard the conditional clearance and realised that if the waiting ac taxied after the dh8 in front of him he'd be head on to him, so challenged it, it then became apparent that the flight plans hadn't been updated.I'm afraid to say it, but US atc and pilot RT is reknown around the world for being very poor, unclear and unprofessional. In fact in the uk it's often US pilots we have the most problems with on the rt, which is amazing really considering they speak English, unlike many of the other European airlines, whose RT is often better.RT, needs to be clear, concise, it needs to be brief when busy but not at the cost of missing the important items or mandatory read backs out. There no point saying things too fast when it just results in you having to say it twice.You will often realise what's required or how busy a frequency is, when you hear things like "callsign only to director on xxx.xx" or "monitor tower on xxx.xx" The whole "as filed" thing is a load of rubbish, what else would you be requesting?There is an caa rt manual available online at the uk caa website

[flyguy172 0]

heh, just today on VATSIM I heard a pilot say "requesting IFR clearance to WXYZ as filed".... and also no mention of the current ATIS that happened to be up

Edited February 3, 2012 by flyguy172

[NJ_Flyer 3]

For pilots that are looking for realism.... you could look up the AIP (Aeronautical Information Publication) for the country you fly in. It details all the accepted standard phrases depending on the situation. They do change from country to country greatly.

[captainklm 1]

and one last question, regarding vataware, if you log on vatsim it records your flight, if you log of during the cruise or something and log back on before arrival will it still record the whole flight?

[gbalean 0]

Just to make sure I know everything ok Ill make a scenario and say what you should say(snip)AMS CENTRE: KLM602 DECEND AND MAINTAIN FL070, TOPPA1A ARRIVAL, EXPECT ILS RWY 36CKLM602: ROGER DECEND AND MAINTAIN FL070, TOPPA1A ARRIVAL, EXPECT ILS RWY 36C FOR LANDING

Yeah but I would leave out ROGER and LANDING - just keep it to the point, they know your landing

Something else that may or may not be of interest is that the part about the ILS for runway 36C didn't actually need to be read back. This is because it was prefixed with the word 'expect'. You don't need to read back expectations, only assignments. Expectations are extra information offered by the controller to help the pilots with forward planning. So in the scenario you gave, KLM602 would ideally say "Descend and maintain FL070, TOPPA1A arrival, KLM602".However, the controller needs to assign a runway when assigning the STAR clearance. So AMS CTR would have actually said "KLM602, STAR clearance a TOPPA1A arrival, runway 36C expect ILS approach, descend and maintain FL070". Note how the runway is stated before the word expect, because it must be assigned with a STAR clearance (needs to consist of arrival name, runway and a level). KLM602 would then say "TOPPA1A arrival runway 36C, descend and maintain FL070, KLM602".Captainklm also asked about the order the altitude / arrival / runway is given in the clearance, and yes it doesn't matter how it's given or read back in practice. However the correct pattern is arrival, runway and level as I mentioned above.I just thought this would be a good example to point out how precise aviation phraseology is designed to be. It is always a little concerning listening to liveatc feeds from the US, where the phraseology used is a lot more free and in my opinion leads to a lot of ambiguities and the potential for safety to be compromised. Of course on VATSIM this isn't an issue, so pilots really don't need to be thinking about the order in which assignments are provided by ATC - just parrot it back! Everyone's been through the phase of not knowing what to say, so just get online and you'll get the hang of it in no time.

[BlueStar 323]

No message.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Bluestar