New to Flight Sims, A Few Questions

[enamel 4]

Hi all, new here.I have been sim racing for quite some time, but never had an attraction to flight sims. Whether real or perceived, the barrier to entry seemed much too high to me. When MS first teased Flight, it was the first time I had an interest in a flight sim, I am firmly in the target market they are trying to attract. If Flight was a $60 box, I would not be playing it, and would be worse off for it. The ala carte model is really ideal for me.I am glad they made this game to appeal to a more general audience, I have having so much fun with it and would have ignored a FS11 release unfortunately. Anyway, I am sure everyone is sick of this topic rehashed over and over so on to my questions!1) "Flare" - In the first Icon landing challenge, you get right down to the runway then you are told to cut power to idle and bring the nose up. Following these instructions will put me into a stall and I drop out of the sky and slam to the ground. Is there something about doing a flare that I am missing?2) Prop RPMs and throttle at cruise - The checklists have you bring the RPMs and throttle down for cruising. My question is if this is something solely to save engine wear and fuel costs? Are mechanical failures modeled in the game? So far I just go 100% all the time because dropping 20 knots for no reason just isn't in my DNA :)

[newthog 0]

Welcome to the forums! If anyone feels my answers are incorrect, or can add to them, please do so!1. GENTLENESS is the key to a flare - slightly raise the nose with power pulled back. The best description that was given to me was "the most gentle way to land is to try NOT to land" - that is, try to stay just above the runway in a slightly nose high attitude with power at idle until the aircraft settles to the runway. As in almost anything else, preparation is key - correct speed, altitude, and attitude on approach make landings easier.2. So far, Flight does not model engine wear/tear or failures. However, I have noticed an actual difference in fuel consumption that somewhat corresponds to indications in the cockpit.Racing vs Flying - racing is usually full throttle or full brake...flying is gentle application of power, gentle changes of aircraft attitude, etc...what's great about it is that you're controlling three axis, not just two. If my attempt at an explanation is as clear as mud, there should be SOMETHING on youtube that illustrates landings? Perhaps someone else can recommend a vid?

[dburne 2]

Hi all, new here.I have been sim racing for quite some time, but never had an attraction to flight sims. Whether real or perceived, the barrier to entry seemed much too high to me. When MS first teased Flight, it was the first time I had an interest in a flight sim, I am firmly in the target market they are trying to attract. If Flight was a $60 box, I would not be playing it, and would be worse off for it. The ala carte model is really ideal for me.I am glad they made this game to appeal to a more general audience, I have having so much fun with it and would have ignored a FS11 release unfortunately. Anyway, I am sure everyone is sick of this topic rehashed over and over so on to my questions!1) "Flare" - In the first Icon landing challenge, you get right down to the runway then you are told to cut power to idle and bring the nose up. Following these instructions will put me into a stall and I drop out of the sky and slam to the ground. Is there something about doing a flare that I am missing?2) Prop RPMs and throttle at cruise - The checklists have you bring the RPMs and throttle down for cruising. My question is if this is something solely to save engine wear and fuel costs? Are mechanical failures modeled in the game? So far I just go 100% all the time because dropping 20 knots for no reason just isn't in my DNA :)

1- it is all in the timing, I will drop the nose down and just as I cross the threshold, I will bring the nose up and gently, to where it does not climb very much. As it starts to slow down it will start to sink slightly, and I gently pull the nose up little more gradually , until eventually the wheels touch down softly. It does take practice and getting a feel for how each individual aircraft behaves. In Flight , it gives you a good indicator in the HUD, in the upper right, you can tell when you are getting really close to actually stalling the plane. Gentle, smooth, practice. You will get a feel for it and it will come to you.2- The big thing is speed, the lower the prop rpm the less it is cutting into the air, hence the slower the aircraft. I use it mainly for landings more than anything, I will typically lower rpm on approach as I get closer to the runway, and bring it all the way back as I cross the threshold, especially if I am a little faster than I want to be, the plane will really slow down.Hope some of this helps,Oh and by the way, welcome to the forums and the great world of flight simulation - warning though, it can be addictive!

[enamel 4]

Ok, I think I am trying to flare too much then. You know how when driving (in real life) you come to a stop and just before you fully stop you lift off the brake to minimize the whiplash effect? That is what I am trying to do on landings. I will have a nice approach going, nose up and gliding in nicely, then to "soften the blow" I am pulling the nose up a lot. But that is where the plane just stalls and comes crashing down.I think I have it and will try to cut that last part out. Thanks guys!

[styckx 1,872]

Here is a video I made of what a a typical landing should look like with with a lot of corrections.Notice a few things, which have been said in this thread by a number of people but it's sometimes better to see it. I am using the RV, and using it on purpose. It's a fast machine and known for being a bit `twitchy' to fly in MS Flight (sensitivity) but flown correctly and gentlely she is still an agile lady in the air.* Gentle, and subtle movements to make corrections* Gentle and subtle power applications and reductions* The flare is so subtle and gentle that you almost don't even notice it being done..One tip I will add.. Learn to fly in the cockpit and not the spot view. Using the spot view is going to teach you how not to land correctly. You can't "feel" the plane from spot view, you can't judge glide slope correctly among many other bad habits. Unless of course you're just out having fun but if you are shooting for `realism'.. Stay in the cockpit. :)http://youtu.be/Xcftm50ZnfsYes my glide slope kind of went to heck at the threshold. :Nerd:

[pinballman85 0]

Thanks for the video. I have trouble landing with the cockpit view a lot of times. Can never really tell how far the wheels are from the ground.

[dburne 2]

Thanks for the video. I have trouble landing with the cockpit view a lot of times. Can never really tell how far the wheels are from the ground.

Ah but don't ya see, that is the beauty - you get a feel for it, just like the real thing... I get a tremendous amount of satisfaction when I really grease one in.

[malibu43 2]

Ok, I think I am trying to flare too much then. You know how when driving (in real life) you come to a stop and just before you fully stop you lift off the brake to minimize the whiplash effect? That is what I am trying to do on landings. I will have a nice approach going, nose up and gliding in nicely, then to "soften the blow" I am pulling the nose up a lot. But that is where the plane just stalls and comes crashing down.I think I have it and will try to cut that last part out. Thanks guys!

Well, I wouldn't cut the last part out completely. That will result in rough landings and/or some bouncing and control issues.Like someone else already said, you want to get to a certain point and then actually "try not to land" and hold the airplane off the ground until it literally falls onto the runway. It sounds like you are already doing this. The trick is to be a lot lower (inches) when the airplane finally falls onto the runway. This is how it's done in real life (unless it's a short field landing, but I digress...). And it is tough to gage when you are just inches off the runway (both in game and in real life). After a while to get used to the "picture" that you're looking for and it's easier. But then change aircraft or land at a wider runway and you start all over again!Also FWIW - I think the timing of the instruction to "pull the power back..." in the training mission is too early. In reality, you are still way to high to pull the power to idle when the intructor tells you to do so. I followed her directions and had the same thing issue. Smack! The Icon apparently likes to have the power kept on further across the threshold.

[styckx 1,872]

Thanks for the video. I have trouble landing with the cockpit view a lot of times. Can never really tell how far the wheels are from the ground.

Practice Practice Practice. :) Nothing more satisifying than flying from the cockpit and knowing the extremeties of your aircraft like the back of your hand. I'm 35 and I've been involved in Flight Sims since a teenager.. When I was young and new all I did was fly from the spot view... Because I was scared and had a hard time gauging where my wheels were.. Lots of practice (god bless Meigs Field) and I started becoming a lot more comfy in the cockpit.

[jjjallen 37]

As my instructor always said never push the nose over on landing! I guess that requires a good approach setup. Just hold back (gently) on the stick and float to the ground.Cheersjja

[pinballman85 0]

"Just hold back (gently) on the stick and float to the ground." That seems to work the best when I get the speed and timing right. Ill need a lot more practice for cockpit view.I have trouble losing speed at times unless I circle around way out start low and throttle down. Wish there was video tutorial on youtube for this stuff for the newbies. FSX tutorial videos crash on my win7 machine.

[Great Ozzie 101]

nose up and gliding in nicely, then to "soften the blow" I am pulling the nose up a lot. But that is where the plane just stalls and comes crashing down.

I found a short Martha King clip describing the roundout and flare to landing. She makes an excellent point why one does "slow flight at minimum controllable airspeed" (not mentioned in my other post about landings). One thing she fails to mention is that the stall warning should go off and ideally you run out of elevator as the wheels make contact.The Cessna's nose is a little low in this clip in my opinion... looks more like the landing attitude in a twin. In either case, you do want to be nose high because as she said, you want those mains to firmly plant first on the ground. The risk of having very little flare (a "flat" landing) is loss of control due to "wheel-barrowing" (albeit something one is likely never to experience in these flight sims).Eyeballs caged outside with primary focus on the point of intended landing... with an occasional peek at the airspeed indicator.John & Martha King are well-known in the flight instruction business here in the U.S. They've been making flight training videos for at least the last 25 years (memory serving me correctly).

Can never really tell how far the wheels are from the ground.

Keep your eyeballs moving as much as possible in the flare... from the cowling to down the runway. Once you can no longer see over the nose, transition to roving up along side the plane (not from the perpendicular, but from the oblique) as far out you can see down the side of the cowling. Resisting the temptation to stop moving your eyes... if you start the "jacklighted deer gaze" i.e. freeze your eyeballs movement, you will end up losing depth perception and quite possibly make contact with the ground sooner than you intend. Again this comes with practice.

[pinballman85 0]

Thanks for the video! Should help us newbies out a lot.

[kama2004 74]

My instructor told me to raise gently the nose then wait for the plane to bleed of its energy until you find it want to sink again. Then raise the nose some more until he cannot fly anymore.In real word, you need to be really attentive to the plane behavior when the wind speed is fluctuating. Flare a bit too much when the wind is increasing and you will baloon which can increase by 5 to 10 feet your height over the runway when you are at very low speed with nose up and near to the stall. You must pay attention to that and fly level to avoid bleeding more energy. Dont rush things and let the plane loose its extra height before resuming the flare. If you feel loosing control then full throttle and go around, its a perfect day to play with the wind and gain experience.In a piper cherookee on long runway, i will often add a 100 rpm of revolution 2 or 3 second before the touch to reducevthe vertical speed and acheive what is called a greaser i.e. A very gentle contact with the ground. Cut power as soon as he touch.Each plane as its own behavior. A Grob 114c wich is a german composite plane will not like the above procedure as it bleeds to rapidly energy full flaps at low speed. He will almost always fall abrubtely if you try to reduce speed too much witch is not smooth even if you are at 1 feet from the runway. So for this one you flare somewhat but you leave the plane make contact with the ground still with some speed and you dont bring it to the stall. Its an aerobatic plane so by definition more unstable than a forgiving trainer like the cheerokee.

[RoboRay 126]

I have trouble losing speed at times unless I circle around way out start low and throttle down.

That sounds about right. :Thinking: