rugerdog,That's ridiculous - the 800/900 is not a patch for the 600/700. PMDG already spent an inordinate amount of time providing the patch for the 600/700 (SU2) at no extra charge with a million features addded. It was stated FROM THE VERY BEGINNING during prelimary development of the NG that the 800/900 would be an addon to the existing 600/700 base package. I love how people act surprised when it was clearly laid out this way from the start. Please don't misrepresent what the 800/900 is - it's the 800/900 models, panel differences, and some new features for the FMC and autoflight system. It was never meant to be a standalone product.As for the IRS comment, we've been over this a million times already - PMDG is not going to implement something unless they can do it right, and at this point that would have added a considerable amount of time to the development cycle, delaying the release. (which you would have been right here complaining about I'm sure) The 747-400 will have the IRS and maybe if people stop acting like this, you can convince them to update the NG to add it...

Matt...I think that's the most fair and balanced post I've ever seen on the subject... Regards,John

What's with all these cry babies who think PMDG should give you their 800/900 package?!?! PMDG said from the beginning that it wasn't going to be a free update, and besides that, for 23 USD you get a lot that wasn't easy to code. Does anyone ever think about how everything had to be coded from scratch? These aren't old panel designs where you can get by with simple analog gauges. PMDG has included real TCAS II logic that beats anything on the market to date thanks to Lee. PMDG has done as much as it can to simulate and add features that people asked for, as well as enhancing it's reality. As with any add-on, it has some bugs, but the team will make good on those once it can elucidate what's causing them. The PMDG support forum is pretty patient and fair considering the demands they get, at least they have an open forum. Nothing irritates me more than cheapskates who insist on pursuing a hobby that may not be cheap. You can afford the computer and FS9, you can afford to buy the PMDG NG, or you don't need it. I realize everyone is entitled to their own opinion, however, you're complaining about the cost and that's it! If the product wasn't a good product or you had some valid complaints then fine, but you don't. They set the price and it was stated as such from the beginning.Worst of all are the parallels being drawn between PMDG and Ariane. Ariane has a shady past and pathetic business practice, plus they are expensive. Other than issues some have with the prices, these two companies have nothing in common.

"Nothing irritates me more than cheapskates who insist on pursuing a hobby that may not be cheap."Agree with everything you say, except for that line.... This hobby should not be exclusive to those who can wave money around. If people want to say something is expensive, the more power to 'em. That doesn't mean we have to agree with them, but calling them cheapskates is a really low shot. For some, one or two add-ons is all they can afford. For others, nothing at all. But one thing is certain--the cost of what is out there is dictated by those with the money to pay more than those without it, and not necessarily by the labor involved. In the case of PMDG, I think it is the opposite and if anything, their price may be under the real market value of what they sell. Still, dropping the price of something by half doesn't mean you get half the profits. Sometimes, you get twice the profit because you've dropped down below that threshold that prevented many from buying. Nothing like that would happen if some didn't raise their concerns about prices. There's being a true cheapskate, and being frugal with your dollar.... Big difference...

Well, I'm sorry if it touches a nerve, but that's how I feel. This hobby isn't exclusive to people with more money! That's why it bothers me that certain simmers are complaining about the PMDG price. I feel as though they're moaning so that PMDG will lower the price to appease them. Look, other companies charge a lot for their add-ons, yet they have legitimate problems IMO. The PMDG isn't so expensive that these people can't afford it. They're just not willing to spend the money. If your computer is fast enough to run the PMDG on a computer that you spent money on for MSFS, then I think you can find a way to budget for your add-ons.Here's an example of why this bothers me. My best friend has had a computer for about 8 years. During most of this time, he's complained to the point of anger about his Internet connection being too slow. I used to tell him to get broadband if it irritates him so much, but no, he insisted on using free dial-up and b**ching. He has plenty of money and just wants something for free. Everything is too expensive to him. Fine, but don't complain because you're not willing to buy a product someone put time and effort into creating. He'd rather DL pirated software with bugs and viruses! This is how I view this attitude about PMDG. Also, one person above said they were disgusting for charging for the "upgrade", which it isn't, and his excuse is the IRS?!?! Come on, IRS is the least important thing in a sim I can even think of. Ridiculous, and rude IMO.

Lest ANYONE forget about just WHO Araine are please read thisAvsim Investigation: Here We Go Again ... By the AVSIM Staff Bob Hale, Bob Howe, "Bobbo", Peter Tishma, Papa Tango, PT, World Air Simulations, Ariane (1), Ariane (2), Corporate Worldwide Limited, Woodlandworld and who knows how many others, all point to the same individual, Peter Tishma of American Airlines fame (or is that infamy?). After a week or so of information being passed to us from a variety of readers, we have independently confirmed that information today. Ariane is in fact run by Tishma, who has steadfastly attempted to hide behind the obscurity of pseudonyms, and after having been dealt with quite firmly by the liquidation courts of the United Kingdom, continues to ply his trade in the flight simulation community. Were this just another gentleman who had gone bankrupt and was attempting to recreate his life after failure, there would be no large or even interesting story here. Given this man, his arrogance and disdain for the very customers he has to rely upon, it is a story worth reporting. This is the same individual that attempted to take over freeware by signing a contract with American Airlines which would have, in his "interpretation"; given him the rights to all AA owned logos, including that of TWA, in respect of their use by all others, including freeware authors. He attempted to force that interpretation off on the simulation community, and did the same with Lauda, British Airways and others. Of course, what he had in all cases was strictly a commercial arrangement with these carriers, and in no shape or way were these agreements intended to throttle the freeware contributors to our hobby, as AVSIM anticipated and subsequently resolved in discussions with AA. But, that did not stop Tishma from foisting off the attempt anyway. In doing so, he was successful in having a number of sites given "cease and desist" letters for either having AA liveried files for download and being interpreted as "commercial" enterprises, or being Virtual Airlines using the American livery. Had Tishma had his way, he would have gleaned enormous commercial benefit from cornering the freeware authors into publishing "approved" works through his company at the time; Papa Tango. Would they have remained freeware? We will let you draw your own conclusion. This is the same person who has literally stolen works from a variety of authors and organizations, including Graham Waterfield and Bob Kirkland of PSS fame. There are too many others to list, but we are quite confident that some of the "old timers" in the hobby can recall more than a few. And now we have Ariane (version 2) selling a GMAX 737. Folks, this is the same Peter Tishma of AA fame. How do we know? Thanks to some intrepid readers (who shall remain nameless) and our own staff, it was all very simple and rudimentary; we called his rented office and asked if he was there. It turns out that Tishma rents an office from Regus Instant Offices, a pretty well known instant office provider in the U.K. The phone number to this particular office is easily obtained by anyone. If you go to the Ariane site, you will find a total lack of any way to get in direct contact with them except through a rather non-descript AOL email account and a fax number. The fax number? Well it just happens to be the fax number for Regus Instant Offices in Luton, the home of the infamous Peter Tishma. What follows is a gist of phone calls repeated twice by a reader, and then by an AVSIM staff member: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Good Morning Regus" "Good Morning, can I speak to Peter Tishma please" "He is not in at the moment, but can I give you his direct number" "Thanks, that would be great" "Just a moment - that would be (number provided)" "Ok, is that Peter's direct line OR Ariane

And given the choice between a 737 and a 727 ....... sorry, wrong thread :-)

Yeaaaaa!Way to go Erick: couldn't agree more!COME ON DREAMFLEET!

Well said John!This cheapskate, (oh I mean frugal buyer) will continue to buy two, or three other fine products for the high price charged by the suppliers in question.Happy flying:RTH

Sorry, Orlaam. I don't care what PMDG said at the beginning. Captainsim didn't first release the 727-100 with panel and sounds for 35$ only to charge extra if you want the -200 model as well. It all came in a package for 36,95$. I'm just not willing to spend over $60 to fly a decent 737-800. I have no interest in the -700. Comparison with the competition just doesn't justify those prices. They knew that the -800 was the more popular model which is flown by more operators and they required prior purchase of the -700 base pack in order to maximize their profits. I already find PSS' pricing policy ridiculous, but there at least you can limit yourself to buying the base package and using it with the (often much better) freeware external models. For the PMDG prices I just don't have any understanding. Misha

MishaSorry, but I can't follow your logic.....What you seem happy about regarding the PSS model (i.e. buy and fly just the 'base' package etc.) is exactly what PMDG has available too!i.e. If all you want (or can afford or whatever) is the PMDG 'base' 600/700 aircraft, then get just that. In it's own right, it's excellent all-round value for money, has a VERY comprehensive cockpit, sounds, free liveries and so on, and it's price compares VERY FAVOURABLY to the likes of Ariane etc.The new '900' is, and always was, designed to be an enhancement at a cost - NOT a mere upgrade and no-one at PMDG ever suggested anything different. If you don't want it (or can't afford it, or whatever), then simply enjoy the base package!As you have always 'supported' Ariane and their extremely expensive pricing policies, I'm surprised at your attack on PMDG....Toni.

>As you have always 'supported' Ariane and their extremely>expensive pricing policies, I'm surprised at your attack on>PMDG....>>Toni. Personal attacks are the arguments of those without any arguments. PS: FYI, I didn't attack PMDG. They unquestionably have a great product. I complained about their pricing policy, which I fail to understand. Anyhoo, it's my wallet not yours. Anyone can buy what they want. I don't understand why people are getting worked up over all this. As I and others have said, given the PMDG pricing policy (however you want to judge that) there appears to be a market for a standalone panel. Whatever dudes...MK

MishaForgive me if you got the wrong impression - when I said you attacked PMDG, I was referring to your stance on their pricing policy.That said, I do agree with you that there's certainly a market for a stand-alone panel and, commercially, PMDG are filling that market! Essentially, the 600/700 'base' product IS a panel product (which happens to also contain the plane, dynamics, liveries, sounds etc.) as I suggest that most of their customers for the product have got it for the panel and associated systems.And reading Ariane's hype, their 'product' in competition will be offering exactly the same components (supposedly).Given Ariane's past pricing policy, I can't wait to see what they're gonna charge!Toni.