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Gregg_Seipp

VOR navigation on J41

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Hi all,

 

Can someone give me an example of how you do VOR navigation on the J41? Typical example: I'm outbound on a VOR1 on a radial and I need to monitor VOR2 for crossing another radial and then turn to follow that radial. I'm interested in how you use the EHSI, EFIS Display Controller and/or the RMI. (In fact, the RMI is a complete mystery to me at this point.) I can see that the left and right dials on the EFIS Display Controller 'turn on' the circle and the diamond but I have no idea what it means. I can also see that I can flip back and forth between NAV1 and NAV2 display using V/L. But I have yet to figure out how it all interacts with the autopilot. The AOM is very thin on this.

 

Any help is, as always, much appreciated.

 

Gregg

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I would just tune the copilot's display to the second VOR and wait to cross it.

 

You could use the RMI needle as well and just wait for the 'tail' of the RMI needle to point at the radial of the second VOR you want to monitor, but my first method would be more accurate. The RMIs are more for the NDBs I'd say. Sometimes though I will use the RMI needle when following an ARC from a VOR. I will fly my plane so that the needle is pointed 90 degrees left/right then fly my plane so the DME stays what it needs to be.

 

Not sure what you mean about the autopilot? The NAV mode on the A/P will track to/from the NAV station currently captured on your display. It can be either NAV1 or NAV2, but it has to be captured first. Is that what you meant?

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Hi Gregg,

 

I tune the VOR for the radial I am on to NAV 1 and the intercepting (next) VOR is tuned to NAV 2. Freq for intercept VOR is also tuned in on the STBY of NAV 1 so that when the turns come I can just quickly tune NAV 1 and track. Also, I select VOR 1 and VOR 2 to be displayed on the EHSI (needles slaved to the VOR's - like having the RMI now in the HSI).

The head of the needles on the EHSI and/or RMI that you have tuned to VOR 2 will start to "fall" towards the station. If you are going to track TO the station, wait until the head is a few degrres from the inbound heading and start your turn inbound. If you are going to track outbound after intercepting, then wait for the tail of the needle to "rise" until a few degrees from the outbound heading to start your turn. I then flip the freq on VOR 1, dial in the new course, and track using the VOR 1 with the EHSI. The RMI gives me a second opinion of what is going on and have all the neat outputs like station ID, GS, and DME (if available at the station).

 

VOR/NDB navigation.... 'the lost art"

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Not sure what you mean about the autopilot? The NAV mode on the A/P will track to/from the NAV station currently captured on your display. It can be either NAV1 or NAV2, but it has to be captured first. Is that what you meant?

 

I meant that I wasn't sure what the autopilot was listening to...the VOR that is displayed in text on the left...or the one selected by the two knobs. I spent some time playing with it on a VFR joyride this morning and found out that the V/L button controls which VOR. It also seems to me that if you have, for example, VOR2 selected (showing on the text on the left side) and you turn on VOR 1, the direction directly to VOR1 will be desplayed by a line with a circle on it in light blue. So, if I'm waiting for a radial, I can watch that. The only downside is that I can't view the NAV1 course bug with that. But, as you say, I can use the copilot's EHSI for that. So, summarizing what I think I've found so far:

  • The line with the solid circle displays the course directly to NAV1. The circle points the way.
  • The bracketed line (parallel lines) displays the course directly to NAV2. The small diamond points the way.
  • If I'm navigating NAV2 (shown on text on the left) I can turn on NAV1 and watch the line with the circle until it is indicating the course to NAV1 is the right radial.
  • I can also use the copilot's EHSI to put NAV1 on so that I can view the course I can change to the course I will want to track on NAV1 when I get there.

Wash, rinse, repeat. Does it sound good?

 

Thanks,

Gregg

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I tune the VOR for the radial I am on to NAV 1 and the intercepting (next) VOR is tuned to NAV 2. Freq for intercept VOR is also tuned in on the STBY of NAV 1 so that when the turns come I can just quickly tune NAV 1 and track. Also, I select VOR 1 and VOR 2 to be displayed on the EHSI (needles slaved to the VOR's - like having the RMI now in the HSI).

The head of the needles on the EHSI and/or RMI that you have tuned to VOR 2 will start to "fall" towards the station. If you are going to track TO the station, wait until the head is a few degrres from the inbound heading and start your turn inbound. If you are going to track outbound after intercepting, then wait for the tail of the needle to "rise" until a few degrees from the outbound heading to start your turn. I then flip the freq on VOR 1, dial in the new course, and track using the VOR 1 with the EHSI. The RMI gives me a second opinion of what is going on and have all the neat outputs like station ID, GS, and DME (if available at the station).

 

That is an excellent way of handling it. If you add to that the ability to set the course on NAV2 via the copilot's EHSI, it makes it even smoother. Very good!

 

VOR/NDB navigation.... 'the lost art"

 

I was doing a short hop across LAX and they told me to use a TEC route and I was puzzled about how, exactly, I was going to program it in to LNAV. So, I shrugged and said it was time to learn VNAV. I figured if I can't handle an outage of the FMS then I shouldn't even be flying the plane. That's when I found out how little I knew. LOL. (It would have been one of those illutrative moments where ATC says "what are you doing?" and my answer would have been "screwing up") :Monkey:

 

Very much appreciate the advice!

 

Gregg

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So I tried this out. It worked fairly well. I noticed two issues with the autopilot.

  • The aircraft tends to fishtail back and forth after crossing a VOR, searching for the new radial to capture.
  • The autopilot disconnected at numerous times, all silently. If you change VOR frequencies...disconnect. Sometimes, if it gets too confused trying to get on a radial...disconnect. You have to be alert for that. There's no audible alert. (bug? feature?)

So, lesson learned, watch the AP for disconnects.

 

Gregg

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Those are all normal, (how real autopilots work)

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If you add to that the ability to set the course on NAV2 via the copilot's EHSI....
I have not tried this, but you may be able to hit the V/L button to display VOR 2 (yellow compass rose) and pre-select the next required course - which will of course be different than that of the VOR 1 and will save us the knob turning during busy time, so when the time comes to track using VOR 2 it is right there in front of you...no need to be looking over to the EHSI on of the right seat....unless she is cute :Peace: I will look into that, never had the option before since I am new to honeywell system.

 

The aircraft tends to fishtail back and forth after crossing a VOR, searching for the new radial to capture
To keep me honest, I sometimes use the HDG on the autopilot to force me to think. You can try this when close or over the station to eliminate the A/P "confusion", which is a little smoother than mine lol

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I change to HDG mode from NAV when close to crossing VOR to prevent "seeking." Get to know your RMI, it is a very powerful tool for VOR navigation and makes flying a DME arc a piece of cake.

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I have not tried this, but you may be able to hit the V/L button to display VOR 2 (yellow compass rose) and pre-select the next required course

 

Gregg,

 

It works great. What you basically have is two VOR heads in one instrument that you can switch in between by the V/L button, you can also set different courses to each. You also get DME readouts (if stations capable) to each independent VOR.

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A lot of good advice here. Here's what I've started to do which aggregates many of the points people have made.

  • I navigate on NAV1 and put the next course on NAV2 in the background on my own EHSI. I then put the heading bug on where NAV2 needs to point when I need to turn as a reminder.
  • I peak over at the right EHSI when I'm getting close to refine my turn (though the advice about just setting AP to Heading flipping to NAV2, making the turn, setting up NAV1 flipping back over to NAV ARM and monitoring until established. It avoids the fishtailing and makes a precise turn.)
  • Then just tune the next VOR on NAV2, set the course and I'm ready for the next change.

As I approach the airport, the turns tend to be more frequent and I really have to work. Sometimes I'm just waiting for a radial crossing to make my dogleg to final and arm APR. ( I'm not flying with VATSIM just yet and FSX ATC drives me nuts so I just act as though ATC is operating without RADAR and proceed with radials and fix to fix until arming APR.) The advice about the RMI is well taken too. I have started peaking down at it.

 

As a side note, at the end of the flight, I flew a VOR approach into SBA Rwy 25. I was fairly tired after trying not to screw up with this. The approach has an offsite VOR...straight in with a fairly large turn to final from the radial (mountain on my right)...I was swamped but made it work...a little hot on the landing (not good on a 6000' runway pointed at the ocean) but it worked out and I had runway to spare.

 

I like you VOR guys. im%20Not%20Worthy.gif

 

BTW, the idea of using V/L to flip back and forth between the VORs is fine as long as you're not using the autopilot on NAV. The autopilot will change to the other VOR if you're on NAV.

 

 

Cheers!

 

Gregg

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You are very determined, Gregg!!! The next SA meeting is on tuesday hihihi

 

I would not use the right seat EHSI, keep it all nice and organized in front of you. Perhaps not in the Sim, but looking all over the cockpit in Wx bouncing around in turbulance is not good.....to simulate this, drink a few shots of rum.

 

Dan's advice about the RMI is very true, you can even track radials just by RMI (a little harder), or track initially until you get the vor head ready (setting the course, for instance) to track.

But with this great bird, you can impose the RMI on the EHSI (select switches in upper coam panel to VOR1 and VOR2), and with VOR 2 (already set up with course and everything) just a V/L- button-push away it is just too good to be true. BTW, if the A/P tracks the VOR selected with the V/L, then much better. You do not need to go to back and forth to VOR 2 for info because the RMI is good enough for that. Learn to anticipate using the RMI. I always use it on ILS, too.

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So, after trying this some yesterday and today, I realized that it was simpler than I was thinking. Here's what I came up with:

  • Tune VOR1 on the EHSI for the radial I'm navigating on.
  • Monitor the RMI (or tune VOR2 to the next radial) and monitor until it is very close to the next radial. Put the heading bug on the radial as a reminder.
  • Just before you're on the new radial, hit HDG on the autopilot...like magic you're turning to the heading for the radial.
  • While you're rolling in the turn, (no rush) tune VOR1 for this new radial and press NAV on the autopilot and let it correct and track.

So simple.

 

The procedure is similar when passing over the top of a VOR...

  • As you're tracking in, put the heading bug on the next heading.
  • When you're close to the VOR (remember slant distance too) press HDG and begin to track the expected heading.
  • Tune NAV1 to the new radial. Just be patient and let the aircraft establish a bit of a course on the other side of the VOR. Let your position relative to the radial become clear, tune the HDG bug to a good intercept angle and, when things are stable, press NAV.

Thanks all you guys very much. The advice really helped!

 

Gregg

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