new shader DX10 vs DX9

[VeryBumpy 272]

Now that Steve has pretty much fixed much of DX10, thought it might be a nice idea to have the pro and cons list.

 

My system is sort of down at the moment so can't really confirm things but from what everyone reports....

 

 

DX10

Pros

-runs faster

-better effects; water, bloom lighting, other?

 

Cons

-can't force anti-aliasing properly hence more shimmering

-many addon planes' textures are missing (planes need proper DX10 compatible textures)

-plane shadows on ground not anti-aliased

 

 

I think the above is right? What am I forgetting? Corrections? Additions?

[Ben Cap 89]

Would anyone be willing to do some direct comparisons?

[Guest firehawk44]

DX10

Pros

-runs faster

In some cases yes. Depends on scenery/system and FSX configurations

-better effects; water, bloom lighting, other?

For sure better water, whitecaps, wind creates whitecaps on water. Water shaders are more efficient.

Shadows in cockpit to enhance realism.

 

Cons

-can't force anti-aliasing properly hence more shimmering

This is not an issue. Shimmering can be fixed. AA works properly. This has been proven by me and at least PaulJ

-many addon planes' textures are missing (planes need proper DX10 compatible textures)

As I have reported several times, this can be fixed by installing the Flightsim program called Addon_ConverterX to convert FS9 and earlier textures for compatibility with FSX. Textures are not saved on your system and are converted as FSX is loaded. So, if you're loading a FS9 aircraft, it will convert the textures for that FSX session. Same goes with incompatible scenery.

-plane shadows on ground not anti-aliased

I have not seen this problem so it can be fixed

-not compatible with XP - http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ptaylor/archive/2007/02/14/why-dx10-wasnt-created-on-xp-and-why-it-isnt-in-xp.aspx.

 

I think the above is right? What am I forgetting? Corrections? Additions?

 

My comments are in bold letters above. For more info on what the developers put into DX10 preview, go to this link - http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ptaylor/archive/2007/10/02/acceleration-and-sp2.aspx.

 

Best regards,

Jim

[VeryBumpy 272]

I'm trying to find a new DX10 shot that doesn't have jaggie ground plane shadows. Mind posting a few?

 

Also, many people are have problems forcing 'proper' AA in DX10. It certainly is not easy or look as good as DX9. By proper I mean not the cheap FXAA, MLAA or injectors.

[Paul J 349]

Pro:-

1). Hot systems - 4.4-gig+ can support moderately heavy weather at the same time as high traffic, high graphics and dense scenery aaand complex aircraft..

2). I have not had an addon that would not convert using AddonConverter.

3). Aircraft lighting issues are cured by A2A Shockwave Lights.

4). Water textures are fabulous. Did not ever see this is FX9.

5). Scenery is sharper.

6). FSX "feels" more stable.

7). When frames do drop, as at Seattle - setup as per 1). above - the don't drop much, and they do - they don't bounce around more than two or three points. i.e. mostly 29.9 or dead on 30. At Seattle, as described, and per my pics - frame drop will be down to 27.4, 27.5, 27.3, 27.5, 28.0, in that manner. I'm not finding 20.1, 26.3, 18.7, 17,9, 22.5, 26.2, etc.. Much closer grouping, and still very, very smooth at the lower numbers. Interesting was the Milviz C310 was a greater hog than the Maddog, and the Milviz Baron was as good as the default C172, with very little drop from 30. This B55 is a very good aircraft, well detailed, with a very good FDE. IMHO this aircraft deserves 5 Stars.

 

Definite Con:-

1). Aircraft shadows on the ground are frame hogs, though not a deal-breaker for me.

2). Am now constantly looking for problems. I will check out Bumpy's ground shadow jaggies.

3). Trying every scenery, every aircraft, taking pics (evidence) staying on top of this forum!!!

[Paul J 349]

OK - Just got back from a jog over to the Flying club pan, where the old Cessna 172 - the default one was parked: I took a few shots - inside and out, and before I left I turned on the "Aircraft casts shadows on itself", in addition to the ground shadowing , (which I did via the cfg before starting the sim)... but no jaggies, guys -> it can be fixed. Bumpy - let's take a look at your Inspector, and your cfg. just post it as an attachment, even if you have to rename it - or just post the important parts... It has to be a config problem, as you'll see from the shots. I've left them as bmp, (at 15meg each - just five, so that others can see the difference between FX9 and FX10 visuals.

 

https://www.dropbox....n3x4/9vFI1znpWB

[VeryBumpy 272]

Thanks for the feedback pics PaulJ. When I get a chance I'll post some pics, settings, etc; may be a few days as my main system is under going motherboard/cpu replacement.

 

Do you get shadow AA with FXAA turned off?

[SteveFx 258]

A few points. There are two types of aa, normal msaa with all it's options, x4 x8 csaa, transparency super sampling etc works as objects are drawn. It operates at the edges only and tries to make straight edges look straight. This means that textures in the middle of objects are not antialiased which is usually a good thing.

 

A recent alternative is fxaa, morphological, smaa injectors etc. these run at the end and try to locate lines in the final output. This can soften textures, but is very fast, it also softens huds and menus, and can cause shimmer and chasing lines etc. I really don't like this!

 

Shadows are not objects that are drawn, rather they are pixel calculations in a shader based on projecting light, the technique is called shadowmapping. The calculations of whether a pixel is shaded or not is prone to producing pixelation unless you try and average over several samples, and this gets worse the further the distance the shadow is projected over. Normal aa has no affect on this. Because the post processing aa works on the final output it will soften shadow edges.

 

The problem with vc shadows wasn't aa it was the averaging calculation in the shader.

 

Comparing dx9 and dx10 with normal aa, shadows when on the ground look much the same, I thought the wing shadow of the baron from above looked a little smoother in dx9 at some angles, but I had to look very hard!

 

It may be that the shadow in flight is different, I will take a look.

 

Non working vsync is a big con for ati owners.

[alainneedle1 97]

I made another vid. to show where I'm at right now, I was looking at the improvement in cockpit shadow made by Steve's shaders, water reflection and more, it's a 15 minutes vid., I was also paning around the chopper (FSX default chopper) to see any tearing on the screen shimmerings or stutters, I also moved the camera inside the cockpit a lot so don't mind the erratic movements.

 

Bottom line is this, it's not perfect (what is?), I still see some minor stutters but I'm working on it, so to me DX9 is not an option anymore, do we get the same high resolution in DX10 as in DX9...of course not, but we can use DX10 with almost everything maxed out with a solid 30FPS locked and better all around immersion if you ask me.

 

[Paul J 349]

Do you get shadow AA with FXAA turned off?

 

Nope: the shots are all with FXAA turned off:

 

NVIDIA Predefined FXAA Usage........ Disallowed

Toggle FXAA Indicator on or off........ Off

Toggle FXAA on or off...................... Off

 

AA and AF are Application controlled; the only other "active" settings are the 1/2 Refresh Rate for Vsyc, plus I still have AA Setting at 8XSQ, and AA Transp. SS set to 2XSGSS - neither of which appears to do anything at all. They were in the original FX9 settings, and I just left them there when I moved to DX10. I turned them on and off in a flight over Puget Sound last night, testing the shimmer on water, (which is also an issue in DX9), but it made no difference, on or off, so it's likely that, the only settings we need are the 1/2 RR and App-Controlled only, as in this pic, which I will be using today/tomorrow:-

(it seems I have to go "shopping" this morning. "Someone" needs a new "bed covering-something-or-other", so I guess I'll be back later, with less money to spend on the hobby...... <_< Harrummph...)

 

https://www.dropbox....oi4r/Aug_30.jpg

 

Hang in there, Bumpy!

[drewhosick 0]

Jim, I picked up Addon Converter X as well. Great addon but one thing I ran into and was curious if you had was a couple aircrafts are now showing the textures as they should but they're also semi transparent. I can see right through a Dash 8 I have for Air Canada/Jazz Air and it's transluscent. Any of that over there?

[Guest firehawk44]

Jim, I picked up Addon Converter X as well. Great addon but one thing I ran into and was curious if you had was a couple aircrafts are now showing the textures as they should but they're also semi transparent. I can see right through a Dash 8 I have for Air Canada/Jazz Air and it's transluscent. Any of that over there?

 

I do not own any FS9 scenery or aircraft so cannot test but others have reported this issue too. Do you have the highmemfix=1 in the Graphics section of the FSX.cfg? Also, do you have the latest version (1.07)? I would contact Flightsim and let them know about this issue. If the product was made to convert old sim textures to FSX as advertised, then I would like to see it working without a problem.

 

Best regards,

Jim

[Guest firehawk44]

I just looked at the manual and here is what the manual states regarding Addon Converter X's capabilities (please note the last sentence...):

 

"Addon Converter X is a plug-in for Microsoft Flight Simulator X that allows using many

 

 

aircraft and sceneries developed for FS2004 with FSX SP2 and FSX Acceleration Pack.

 

Many existing aircraft and sceneries suffer display problems with these FSX versions,

such as missing textures or missing scenery objects in the DirectX 10 mode. Addon

Converter X resolves many of these problems on the fly, thus allowing you to enjoy

thousands of sceneries and aircraft developed for previous Flight Simulator versions with

FSX.

 

Addon Converter X does not modify any files you have installed in FSX. It performs

conversions on the fly as FSX is loading files. Converted texture files are kept in a

special “cache” folder to reduce loading times during their subsequent uses. You don’t

have to “convert” any new add-ons installed. Simply copy them into FSX, and Addon

Converter X will make any necessary changes automatically.

 

Note that while Addon Converter X resolves most common problems, it does not resolve

every possible incompatibility."

 

Best regards,

Jim

[Paul J 349]

I don't know much about the internals of FSX - DX9 v DX10, Jim, but playing around this afternoon leads me to believe that DX10 water is not affected by FSWC (315) at all, and I didn't notice anything different using the DX10 shader provided with FSWC Lite, either. I removed (xxx'd) the WaterConstants,xml, after swapping WallyDog's version for the stock version - without change, and DX10 ran just fine without it!

[RWFeldman 159]

his is not an issue. Shimmering can be fixed. AA works properly. This has been proven by me and at least PaulJ

 

Ive experimented with this and as AA is better, Its still not acceptable for my likes.