Help) My 747 tends to take off too early and nose up.

[FLEX1978 373]

Hey Dogang,

 

What other addon aircraft do you have installed? I would suggest starting with the basics, clean out your 'situation' file, it holds a lot of info for your last saved flight so if you are using other addons it can become corrupt. Easiest way to do it is to load the default Cessna, shut it down, save the flight and then reload the PMDG747

 

It may not be the solution but if pilot error is ruled out then it's worth a try.

 

Regards

[Rations 102]

You seem to have an excessive amount of fuel for a flight with a cruising altitude of 15000 ft and less than 500 NM long. However, this seems to contradict the behavior of the aircraft, as it should cause the aircraft to be more sluggish. Also, you should probably set the SPD window to your V2 speed, as suggested by the real manual.

[DOGANG KIM 8]

Hey Kim,

 

What other addon aircraft do you have installed? I would suggest starting with the basics, clean out your 'situation' file, it holds a lot of info for your last saved flight so if you are using other addons it can become corrupt. Easiest way to do it is to load the default Cessna, shut it down, save the flight and then reload the PMDG747

 

It may not be the solution but if pilot error is ruled out then it's worth a try.

 

Regards

 

My installed addons are rex, active sky 2012, ezdok camera. But I made addons be disabled. And I tested 747. Nothing changes.

 

Now I take off with flap 10. It's better than flap 20. sitll I have to adjust trim a lot. but it's better than before.

 

Thank you.

[FLEX1978 373]

I meant addon Aircraft. If you have used other add-ons in the past and the file is not refreshed before flying the PMDG 747 then you can see weird behaviour as you described.

[DOGANG KIM 8]

I meant addon Aircraft. If you have used other add-ons in the past and the file is not refreshed before flying the PMDG 747 then you can see weird behaviour as you described.

I know the tip. Because of Airbus X A320 doesn't have Avionics Master button, I have to load defualt C172 and turn on the avionics master, then I road the A320 to turn on avionics. (squawck box 4.0 requires avionics turned on to use)

 

So I did test with same way. Nothning changes T.T

[fstulm 4]

Hello

 

Dogang, can you please try the TO with 20 flap and the GE engines instead? Flap 10 indeed gives too high rolling speed.

 

Ionut "John" Micu

[SpeedBird376 2]

hi dogang

 

i would just like to add that flaps 10 and 20 are the takeoff flaps for the -400. flaps setting are generally down to the weight of the aircraft, temp, runway length and also depends on the airlines procedures. if you are experiencing the nose rotating before your rotate speed i suggest putting a little forward pressure on the yoke and adjusting your trim.

 

Regards

 

Thomas Wills

[lensman 0]

Folks, in one of the screenshots, both VNAV and LNAV are on during the takeoff roll. I thought one did not use them on takeoff. I'm sure it's in one of the PMDG tutorials, and the real manuals.

 

If I remember correctly, arming LNAV will make the plane rotate by itself.

 

Also, the tutorials and manuals both say takeoff flaps should be 10 (regardless of derate).

 

dan davison

[Captain Kevin 586]

Negative, LNAV and VNAV are merely armed in the screenshot. They can only be engaged when the autopilot is engaged. Also, arming LNAV won't make the plane rotate by itself. LNAV doesn't even control pitch, so it can't. It only controls direction.

[Rations 102]

Also, the tutorials and manuals both say takeoff flaps should be 10 (regardless of derate).

No. If the gross takeoff weight is heavy enough (or if runway length or weather conditions are potentially problematic), flaps 20 should be used. I think several carriers standardize flaps 20 for all takeoffs.

 

While arming LNAV and/or VNAV is optional, I prefer to do so before takeoff to eliminate some workload.

[ZKOKQ 986]

This may help

 

TAKE-OFF AND LANDING REPORT KLM55 EGCC-EDDP

TOPCAT 2.71 22NOV12 03:21Z

A/C PH-BFL B747-400 CF6-80C2B1F

 

ALL WEIGHTS IN POUNDS

 

//////// AIRPORTS ////////

 

TAKEOFF: EGCC/MAN MANCHESTER INTL RWY 23L FLAPS 20 ELEV. 257FT ( 78M)

LANDING: EDDP/LEJ LEIPZIG RWY 26L FLAPS 30 ELEV. 470FT ( 143M)

 

//////// WEATHER ////////

 

EGCC 220250Z AUTO 17011KT 9999 NCD 08/06 Q1008

EGCC 211702Z 2118/2224 25005KT 9999 SCT030

BECMG 2120/2123 17010KT

TEMPO 2123/2206 17015G25KT 6000 SHRA BKN010

BECMG 2206/2209 17017G27KT

BECMG 2209/2212 6000 -RA

TEMPO 2212/2216 17025G42KT 3000 +RA +SHRA BKN006

BECMG 2216/2219 22010KT

BECMG 2219/2222 9999 NSW

 

 

EDDP 220250Z 21009KT CAVOK 04/03 Q1020 NOSIG

EDDP 211700Z 2118/2218 20008KT 9999 SCT030

 

 

//////// TAKE-OFF ////////

 

APT PRWY POAT PWIND PQNH PMRTW FLP CONF THRUST V1 VR V2 PTOW

EGCC 23L +8°C 170/11 1008 584531 FLAPS 20 D-TO2 +68°C 133 139 147 583586

 

RMKS - CALCULATIONS VALID AT QNH 1003 AND ABOVE

- SPEED/FLAPS SCHEDULE: VREF30=148 F10=168 F5=188 F1=208 UP=228 CLEAN=248

 

 

 

 

--------- ------ --------- ----- ----------- ----- ----- ----- ---------------------

RWY/INT OAT WIND QNH RWY COND V1 VR V2 THRUST/FLAPS CONFIG

 

 

------------- REDUCED - DRY - OPT FLAPS - OPT THRUST - A/C ON - A/I OFF ------------

RWY 05L RWY 05R RWY 23L

10000 FT 10007 FT 10007 FT

TO1 TW05 TO1 TW05 TO2 HW05

AT N1 FLAPS 20 AT N1 FLAPS 20 AT N1 FLAPS 20

+74 92.4 582742F 34-41-47 +74 92.3 583406F 34-41-47 +72 89.3 570133C 31-37-46

/+72 92.6 588540F 32-40-48 /+72 92.6 589210F 32-40-48 +70 89.5 577332C 33-39-47

+70 92.9 594339F 33-41-49 +70 92.9 595014F 34-41-49 /+68 89.8 584531C 34-40-48

+68 93.2 600279F 34-42-50 +68 93.1 600994F 35-42-50 +66 90.0 591730C 35-41-49

+66 93.4 606383F 34-42-51 +66 93.4 607103F 34-42-51 +64 90.3 598929C 35-42-50

HW/10 KT +32337 +32353 0

TW/15 KT -44562 -42562 -53118

 

RWY 23R

10000 FT

TO2 HW05

AT N1 FLAPS 20

+72 89.3 569766C 31-37-46

+70 89.5 576964C 33-39-47

/+68 89.8 584162C 34-40-47

+66 90.1 591360C 35-41-48

+64 90.3 598558C 35-41-49

HW/10 KT 0

TW/15 KT -53292

 

 

--------------- FULL - DRY - OPT FLAPS - OPT THRUST - A/C ON - A/I OFF -------------

RWY 05L RWY 05R RWY 23L

10000 FT 10007 FT 10007 FT

TO TW05 TO TW05 TO HW05

OAT N1 FLAPS 10 OAT N1 FLAPS 10 OAT N1 FLAPS 10

+12 105.3 749581O 44-60-75 +12 105.2 756495O 45-61-76 +12 105.3 823873F 54-71-84

+10 104.9 750187O 44-60-75 +10 104.9 757081O 45-61-76 +10 104.9 826165F 54-71-84

/ +8 104.5 750793O 44-60-75 / +8 104.5 757666O 45-61-76 / +8 104.6 828457F 55-72-84

+6 104.2 751399O 44-60-75 +6 104.2 758252O 45-62-76 +6 104.2 830748F 55-72-84

+4 103.8 752005O 44-60-75 +4 103.8 758838O 45-62-76 +4 103.8 833040F 55-72-85

HW/10 KT +37481 +37481 +7934

TW/15 KT -62827 -62827 -86234

 

RWY 23R

10000 FT

TO HW05

OAT N1 FLAPS 10

+12 105.3 823232F 54-71-84

+10 104.9 825518F 54-71-84

/ +8 104.6 827805F 55-72-84

+6 104.2 830091F 55-72-84

+4 103.9 832378F 55-72-85

HW/10 KT +7921

TW/15 KT -86174

 

************************************************************************************

* MAX TAKE-OFF WEIGHT MUST NOT EXCEED MAX CERT TAKE-OFF WEIGHT OF 875000 LB *

************************************************************************************

 

----------------------- SPECIAL ENG FAIL TAKEOFF PROCEDURES ------------------------

RWY LENGTH PROCEDURE

05L 10000FT AT 3 DME 'MCT' 113.55 LT TO 'MCT' 113.55 (090 INBD,LT)

05R 10007FT AT 3 DME 'MCT' 113.55 LT TO 'MCT' 113.55 (090 INBD,LT)

23L 10007FT RT TO 'MCT' 113.55 (090 INBD,LT)

23R 10000FT RT TO 'MCT' 113.55 (090 INBD,LT)

 

//////// LANDING ////////

 

APT PRWY POAT PWIND PQNH PMRLW FLP CONF VREF VAPP PLDW

EDDP 26L +4°C 210/09 1020 880000 FLAPS 30 143 148 549596

 

RMKS - CALCULATIONS VALID AT QNH 1015 AND ABOVE

 

 

 

--------- ------ --------- ----- ------------ ------ ------ --------------------

RWY/INT OAT WIND QNH RWY COND VREF VAPP FLAPS CONFIG/COND

 

 

---------------------- DISPATCH LIMITS - DRY - A/C ON - A/I OFF --------------------

*** NORM VIS / LOW VIS ***

RWY 08L RWY 08R RWY 26L RWY 26R

11811 FT TW05 11811 FT TW05 11811 FT HW05 11811 FT HW05

OAT FLAPS 30 FLAPS 30 FLAPS 30 FLAPS 30

+8 863014F/778447F 862863F/778313F 880000F/839967F 880000F/840289F

+6 863014F/778447F 862863F/778313F 880000F/839967F 880000F/840289F

/ +4 863014F/778447F / 862863F/778313F / 880000F/839967F / 880000F/840289F

+2 863014F/778447F 862863F/778313F 880000F/839967F 880000F/840289F

0 863014F/778447F 862863F/778313F 880000F/839967F 880000F/840289F

HW/10 KT +16986/ +75031 +17137/ +75014 0/ +12737 0/ +12744

TW/15 KT -85096/ -73598 -85079/ -73581 -102775/-135734 -102480/-135794

 

************************************************************************************

* MAX LANDING WEIGHT MUST NOT EXCEED MAX CERT LANDING WEIGHT OF 630000 LB *

************************************************************************************

 

------------- REQUIRED LDG DIST - NORM VIS - FLAPS 30 - A/C ON - A/I OFF -----------

*** VALID FOR ALL RWYS AT EDDP. BASED ON NO WIND ***

LDW DRY WET CONTAMIN.

566000 6159FT 7083FT 7083FT

560400 6108FT 7024FT 7024FT

555000 6058FT 6967FT 6967FT

/549596 / 6008FT / 6909FT / 6909FT

544000 5957FT 6850FT 6850FT

538600 5907FT 6793FT 6793FT

533000 5855FT 6734FT 6734FT

HW/10 KT -313FT -359FT -359FT

TW/15 KT +1654FT +1902FT +1965FT

 

------------- REQUIRED LDG DIST - LOW VIS - FLAPS 30 - A/C ON - A/I OFF ------------

*** VALID FOR ALL RWYS AT EDDP. BASED ON NO WIND ***

LDW DRY WET CONTAMIN.

566000 7083FT 8145FT 8145FT

560400 7024FT 8077FT 8077FT

555000 6967FT 8012FT 8012FT

/549596 / 6909FT / 7946FT / 7946FT

544000 6850FT 7878FT 7878FT

538600 6793FT 7812FT 7812FT

533000 6734FT 7744FT 7744FT

HW/10 KT -359FT -413FT -413FT

TW/15 KT +1902FT +2187FT +2260FT

 

--------------- AUTOBRAKE LDG DIST - DRY - FLAPS 30 - A/C ON - A/I OFF -------------

*** VALID FOR ALL RWYS AT EDDP. BASED ON NO WIND ***

LDW AUTO 1 AUTO 2 AUTO 3 AUTO 4 AUTO MAX

566000 8636FT 7340FT 6292FT 5342FT 4393FT

560400 8559FT 7271FT 6245FT 5296FT 4363FT

555000 8486FT 7205FT 6201FT 5252FT 4333FT

/549596 / 8412FT / 7139FT / 6157FT / 5208FT / 4304FT

544000 8336FT 7070FT 6111FT 5163FT 4273FT

538600 8263FT 7004FT 6067FT 5118FT 4244FT

533000 8186FT 6936FT 6021FT 5073FT 4214FT

HW/10 KT 0FT 0FT 0FT 0FT 0FT

TW/15 KT +3075FT +2475FT +2100FT +1650FT +1200FT

 

END TAKE-OFF AND LANDING REPORT KLM55 EGCC-EDDP 22NOV12

[fstulm 4]

Hello all

 

If you ask me, such a super light aircraft and such a long runway, flap 20 for TO is an overkill. Look at the amount of reduced thrust in order to comply with such a high lift configuration on an airport with such low density altitude. I mean DTO2 +68. I wonder if that is not already passed the max 25% reduction by law.

 

Anyway, what we are missing in PMDG is something that Boeing has specifficaly forbiten from publishing and that is the FPPM. In other words, we don't have the most important part of the TO planning. In reality, just like TOPCAT is trying to do, you either have it done by the office or you grab the FPPM and see and choose the most conservative configuration and power given the Runway Limited Weight and Climb Limited Weight for the existing conditions.

 

I doubt that TOPCAT takes into consideration the obstacle/terrain/climb gradient required. Again, I might be wrong as I don't have that application. But for simulation is OK.

 

Regards,

 

Ionut "John" Micu

[FLEX1978 373]

Anyway, what we are missing in PMDG is something that Boeing has specifficaly forbiten from publishing and that is the FPPM

 

you can find all the data you want in minutes using Google, just don't provide the link on Avsim.

 

 

I doubt that TOPCAT takes into consideration the obstacle/terrain/climb gradient

 

It does.

 

DTO2 +68. I wonder if that is not already passed the max 25% reduction by law.

 

A derate is the same as sticking less powerfull engines on the aircraft, hense why you cannot cancel a derate on takeoff but you can cancel your assumed temp if nedeed, it's all to do with Vmca and a loss of an engine.

 

Nothing wrong with using D-T02 combined with +68c assumed temp.

 

25% reduction limit is on 'Rated Thrust'

[kevinh 409]

(sorry my English)

 

I set up the trim as FMC CG calculator says.

 

Usually I fly 300~600 miles. passenger is full, cargo is half or 1/3 sometimes. Fuel is 130 ~ 140 (x1000)

 

In this case trim is 5.5~5.9

 

 

Then when I take off, I don't pull my yoke but my 747 rotats almost automatically. (Very strong nose up)

 

After take off, my 747 coutinues nose up. and the pitch is passsed 20 degree.

 

So I have to push my yoke to suppress pitch up.

 

 

So my sollution is egnoring FMC CG. I set trim 4.5~5.0 (lower than FMC) . and my plane is controlable.

 

Is this normal?

Hi Dogang,

 

The trim setting is intended to ensure you are trimmed at V2+10 for initial climb. It is not set to ensure rotation is correct. It's up to the pilot to do that. Can you try taking off at the problem condition, retract landing gear, but leave flaps at 20. Without changing stab trim see what speed the aircraft wants to stabilise at. If it's somewhere just above V2 then the sim is doing a pretty good job.

 

edit:

 

I've just had a chance to try this for myself. With either Flap 10 or Flap 20 if I don't touch the column, my 747 doesn't begin to rotate until around 180 kts (well above V2). If I rotate at Vr, takeoff is normal and the trim setting (6 units NU) is about right for the initial climb speed. As everything else looks just like your screenshots I can only conclude you have an installation problem. I'd suggest you reinstall the 747 and try again.

[kevinh 409]

No. If the gross takeoff weight is heavy enough (or if runway length or weather conditions are potentially problematic), flaps 20 should be used. I think several carriers standardize flaps 20 for all takeoffs.

 

While arming LNAV and/or VNAV is optional, I prefer to do so before takeoff to eliminate some workload.

I don't think it's correct to say Flap 20 should be used if heavy enough. Either 10 or 20 can be used as long as weight, runway length and obstacle clearance is fine. Some carriers standardise on 20, some on 10 and others leave it to the pilot's decision. Given the option, some pilots prefer 10, others 20.