No Spoiler

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Yeah, I was about to say what Tom did.

 

Once your wheels are on the ground, keep them there. Your go/no-go decision should have been made much earlier. If you're on the ground, you're now essentially attempting a takeoff with flaps providing a ton of drag, and you've used up 1000+ feet of runway (compared to a normal, full-length takeoff).

 

The accident had more to do with the improper landing technique than it did with the spoilers. In the end, all the spoilers are doing is destroying the lift of the wing to put more weight on the wheels for more effective braking. Given a 10,000' runway, you could certainly land without them with no issue.

[Taipan 30]

That might explain why.. On a normal approach after STAR I'm on a steady powered descent = late idle = no spoiler.

 

Test approaches, I'm impatient, come in at Idle for quicker landing = spoiler.

 

I'll try it next time.

 

Also yes you guys are right I should just pull my spoiler lever back all the way manually and just finish the landing. I just don't like having a flow that has a 30% failure rate.

 

Maybe I'll just change my flow to use manual spoilers every time.

[hopskip 253]

I'v only had "no Spoiler" maybe twice in my years of flying the PMDG MD11. Both times off bounced landings. I really thought it was some kind of saftey feature to prevent spoiler deployment while airborne or while trying to go around.

 

I have also found PMDG have modelled the tendancy of the aircraft to need some interesting forward/back yoke movements after touchdown just like the real one is reported to have. Something about landing gear positioning, COG, Centre of Pressure and the location of thrust reversers/spoilers tending to pull the nose up after touchdown.

 

Trent Hopkinson

[Taipan 30]

Thanks Trent now that means I have to look at hardware issues again lol

 

arghh I can't find a single cause. The only thing I can say for sure is it never ever happens on auto lands. But I never have bad rnough weather to require auto land so I'm not doing that normally.

 

What throttle system do you have?

I have double Saitek with the button reversers setup in the detents, FSUIPC only.

 

Do you do mostly manual landings as well? Double tap AP disconnect but leave A/T on?

 

I've also tried intentional bounces an they don't trigger it, I looked at one no spoiler landing in FSRecorder from the side and the wheels greased but stopped turning for half a second like it wasn't a firm enough landing or a slight skip but full bounces have spoiler deployed.

 

The not idle explanation sounds like something to test but then we also have A/T complications it will depend on approach speed. I've tried so many things and I can't MAKE it happen, it only happens when I don't expect it. I need to try harder but no time now :(

 

Ps yeah I noticed the Yoke movement needed too, nose lowering is manual as the spoilers I believe prevent the nose coming down. Have to be careful doing that if it was a bounce that was not noticed like in Riyadh

[WR269 367]

I have had it happen a few times...on another note, I see we have yet another bounce accident...this time in Campinas/Viracopos airport, a Centurion MD-11 bounced 3 times....the 4th touchdown was catastrophic....note....no spoilers!

 

[Taipan 30]

Bloody bounces hey, glad there was no fire. Probably scared the crap out of the pilots I'm sure they've read the other accident reports.

 

So they had no spoiler because they were going around but then stalled into another bounce? I suppose it will be a while before the reports out.

[hopskip 253]

Do you do mostly manual landings as well? Double tap AP disconnect but leave A/T on?

 

 

I usually go manual on power at some late stage of the approach too. so Double tap AP, fly with the A/T on till fully configured, usually around outer marker or sometimes closer after the V-APP is established, and then take out auto thrust too. 30ft in the flare, idle thrust, The little forward/back yoke dance on touchdown, and then the reversers in (which for me is a few button presses which basically command a keypress of a repeating F2). I'v never been a big believer in having a manual flare with auto throttle in, seems like it's just asking for trouble/thrust increases as the A/T tries to hold the same speed through the whole flare.

 

Trent Hopkinson

[WR269 367]

Bloody bounces hey, glad there was no fire. Probably scared the crap out of the pilots I'm sure they've read the other accident reports.

 

So they had no spoiler because they were going around but then stalled into another bounce? I suppose it will be a while before the reports out.

 

They never attempted a go around, which i guess was their mistake. It bounced four times and at the end blew the tyres on the center gear and the left wing gear collapsed.

 

Looking at some of the photos, the gear strut simply sheared off, as if someone took to it with an angle grinder.

 

There are some very good posts from actual MD11 pilots in the MD11 forum talking about techniques for landing, developed after reviewing accidents like these, well worth reading.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

I sometimes get a NO SPOILERS call, but it is in part to do with the ground contact logic. The sim sees the aircraft on the ground, but insuffciently so for the spoilers to deploy (especially if I'm fairly soft at touching down, but not bouncing). It is followed by SPOILERS DEPLOYED however just a second or two afterwards as the WoW are activated.

 

As for the MD-11 bouncing IRL - this is a tough subject. It is part pilot error, part LSAS. How much of each is hard to say without the FDR data. The LSAS issue (too sensitive in the approach/landing phase) was supposed to have been addressed by a software update. Part of the problem is that during a bounce, the nose pitches down, and LSAS over-reacts with too much nose-up. The pilots then push to prevent a tail strike/stall, and well....

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[mortenha69 7]

Your go/no-go decision should have been made much earlier. If you're on the ground, you're now essentially attempting a takeoff with flaps providing a ton of drag,

 

I agree, but when you bounce, and you don't feel the bounce, you're past the point of making a go/no-go decision before RWY contact. And a bounce is a go-around situation (If I understand the numerous posts on PPrune on the subject).

 

I know that your ROD right before contact is a good indicator if there's gonna be a bounce, facilitating the decision to hit TOGA before the bounce. But personally I don't have the skills and knowledge (on how to scan before contact) to monitor my ROD while I'm aiming for the touchdown markers. Too much going on... for me at least.

 

That's why I think that this will become a problem one day. And I will bounce right off the RWY, spoilers deployed and all, hitting the dirt hard. maybe even upside down, with flames.

 

Well, at least I'm wide awake while landing the "scud". And it is somewhat thrilling to do a perfect landing with this bird in particular

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I agree, but when you bounce, and you don't feel the bounce, you're past the point of making a go/no-go decision before RWY contact. And a bounce is a go-around situation (If I understand the numerous posts on PPrune on the subject).

 

My post was aimed at the comment where someone implied they should have gone around simply because of the "no spoilers" callout. If you're on the ground, you're on the ground. Stay there.

 

If you bounce hard enough to warrant a go around, then go around. The FDX crash in EWR would definitely underscore that. I find it hard to believe you wouldn't be able to feel that, though. A smaller bounce may go unnoticed, but that's not going to cause the same results as the EWR and NRT accidents. Those were much larger bounces (and in the case of the NRT accident, multiple).

[FLEX1978 373]

If you bounce maintain 7.5 degrees pitch and add thrust.

 

if your F/O calls no spoilers they should manually deploy them on your command.

 

In our virtual world if we hear that call out grab your spoiler lever and fully deploy.

 

Not sure about you guy's but with my soundpack on the MD11 I can hear and feel a rumble when my main gears are on the ground.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

A Go around after a bounce is 'not' SOP on the MD11. It is hammered into flight crew to maintain pitch, not fight the aircraft and let it settle down.

 

Nice to have scud drivers around here. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the finer details would get lost in the Boeing Iron Curtain, because you can only find so much online.

[FLEX1978 373]

Nice to have scud drivers around here. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the finer details would get lost in the Boeing Iron Curtain, because you can only find so much online.

 

Hey Kyle, I edited my post since things can get easily misunderstood on these forums. if you have smacked the aircraft onto the tarmac and bounce severley then you should go around. My initial comment was based on a smaller bounce from a very firm landing.

 

MD11 always will be my favourite aircraft. I wish PMDG would bring her up to NGX/777 specs. I would never have to fly another addon again

[scandinavian13 5,192]

MD11 always will be my favourite aircraft. I wish PMDG would bring her up to NGX/777 specs. I would never have to fly another addon again

 

Pretty sure I'd say the same. I've always had a thing for the tri-holers.