Hi guys, I have strange problem in programming WEIGHT INIT page and relative fuel planning.

 

This is my route: EHAM-SAEZ, real operated by Martinair Cargo.

 

Here my data in KGS:

 

FUEL CORR ENDUR

TRIP 100308 ........ 13:32

CONT 5% 5015 ........ 00:55

ALTN SADJ 1613 ........ 00:12

FINAL RSV 2724 ........ 00:30

MIN T/O 109660 ........

EXTRA 0 ........ 00:00

TAXI 450 ........ 00:10

RELEASE 110110 ........ 15:19

 

As you can see my BLOCK fuel is 110.110 and I used CI=100

 

ZFW=160.065

Payload=43495

Initial FL=300

 

When I fill data in relative fmc WEIGHT INIT page I gain always a negative EXTRA TIME resulting in INSUFFICIENT FUEL alert message in FMC.

 

I inserted RTE RVSV 5% instead of 10% as PMDG default

 

Where I go wrong? Maybe my CI, too high? Considering it's a long range haul, which value I have to insert in cost index value for M0.82 cruise, maybe 80?

 

Many thanks for your help

First, you should really take a look at the tutorials.  There's a reason they were written.

 

Second, you're getting negative extra time because the FMC calculates that you don't have enough fuel for the entire flight, in addition to the extra required reserves.  If you get this on the ground, you should consider adding fuel, not reducing your reserve (if it says extra will be -5.0, add 5000 pounds).  That extra fuel needs to be 0 or higher.  Otherwise your flight is using some of your reserve fuel for the normal flight segment.

 

You can use your FMC as a fuel planner while you're still getting ready for the flight.  I'm not sure where you got your fuel numbers, but without that flight's exact CI and wind data, there's no sense in using the fuel numbers from it, if you got them from the actual flight data somehow.  TOPCAT is not a valid fuel planning tool, if that's what you're using.

Scandinavian sorry, but I've read both tutorial and manuals till some time ago, and re-read them again in these days.

 

Maybe you don't understand what I want to say. I perfectly know that if you obtain negative EXTRA TIME you HAVE to add more fuel, it's logical.

 

The problem is that if you add either the maximum fuel, 116500 KGS, you get always negative EXTRA TIME, consequently INSUFFICIENT FUEL.

 

I perfectly know you can use FMC for planning purpose using BLOCK fuel before engine start, it's a specific FMC function.

 

I'm using FSBuild and wind component it's -9. Consider FSBUILD puts out 106.400 KGS and I rounded up to 110.000

McDonnell-Douglas MD-11 Fuel Planner

Amsterdam to Buenos_Aires EHAM-SAEZ (6185 NM)

Total Fuel: 262898 POUNDS   Fuel Time Fuel Usage 243281 15:30 Reserve Fuel 19616 01:15 Fuel on Board 262898 16:45 Schiphol to Ministro Pistarini All weights in POUNDS

L O A D S H E E T          CHECKED       APPROVED                EDNO                                                                    0ALL WEIGHTS IN POUNDSDATABASE JUN/12 // MCDONNELL-DOUGLAS MD-11 FROM/TO        FLIGHT     A/C-REG     VERSION    CREW   DATE     TIMEEHAM/SAEZ      2404       __AMF       12JN21     2/03   08MAY13  2006                         WEIGHT  DISTRIBUTIONLOAD IN COMPARTMENTS     006535   B217/30PASSENGER/CABIN BAG      045240   Y232/195                                            EFU.243281/  RSV.19616TOTAL TRAFFIC LOAD       051775DRY OPERATING WEIGHT     283975ZERO FUEL WEIGHT ACTUAL  335750    MAX 400000TAKE OFF FUEL            262897        TAKE OFF WEIGHT ACTUAL   598648    MAX 618000TRIP FUEL                243281LANDING WEIGHT ACTUAL    355366    MAX 429985                                  ++--------------------------------+                                  |             LAST MINUTE CHANGES |                                  | DEST   SPEC  CL/CPT  + - WEIGHT |                                  |                                 |                                  |                                 |                                  |                                 |                                  +---------------------------------+UNDERLOAD BEFORE LMC      19351                LMC TOTAL + ----------------------------------------------------------------------SI BLOCK TIME 15:30   RESERVE 01:15   TIME TO EMPTY 16:45   CI 48Estimated fuel requirement exceeds maximum fuel capacityEND LOADSHEET          [ MD11 ]        [ EHAM-SAEZ ]      [ 08MAY13 ]=====================================================================Copyright 2008-2012 by Garen Evans and FuelPlanner.com

check out fuel planner

Riccardo,

1- Martinair from EHAM to SAEZ always makes an intermediate stop in KMIA.

2- I set up the FMC for eham/saez, not knowing your flightplan I made it direct. The FMC calculates that this makes 13.03 flying time for which ( based on your payload) it calculates 106.2 tripfuel. Adding the additional stuff I come to a block of 116.1. If you enter a block that is lower you will get negative extra time. I agree that this might be confusing as there is no extra time but it simply indicates that you do not have enough fuel. Do not know where you got the trip of 100.3 but this doesnt match what my fmc calculates. I guess the fuelburn of FSbuild does not match the PMDG fuelburn of the actual aircraft. Your ZFW also puzzles me. According to my loadmanager the zfw for the empty aircraft is 113.849, adding the 43.495 would give a zfw of 157.344 compared to the 160.065 that you come up with.

 

Dick R.

Riccardo,

1- Martinair from EHAM to SAEZ always makes an intermediate stop in KMIA.

2- I set up the FMC for eham/saez, not knowing your flightplan I made it direct. The FMC calculates that this makes 13.03 flying time for which ( based on your payload) it calculates 106.2 tripfuel. Adding the additional stuff I come to a block of 116.1. If you enter a block that is lower you will get negative extra time. I agree that this might be confusing as there is no extra time but it simply indicates that you do not have enough fuel. Do not know where you got the trip of 100.3 but this doesnt match what my fmc calculates. I guess the fuelburn of FSbuild does not match the PMDG fuelburn of the actual aircraft. Your ZFW also puzzles me. According to my loadmanager the zfw for the empty aircraft is 113.849, adding the 43.495 would give a zfw of 157.344 compared to the 160.065 that you come up with.

 

Dick R.

 

Hi Dick and thanks, 1) it's the point. You have no sufficient fuel to fly the route in one shot, you must stop to KMIA.

 

Maybe I did something wrong in fuel calculation, here it is my new one with FSBuild with payload=43495 KGS

 

                      FSBUILD FLIGHT PLAN

FLT REL IFR    EHAM-24/SAEZ-11  MACH 82  A/C  MD11 W/ CF6-80C2D1F

           FUEL  TIME    CORR   TOGWT    LDGWT   AVG W/C

TAXI      000544 0010  . . . .  274370   181623  M001

DEST SAEZ 092747 1325  . . . .  ELEV. 67 FT

RESV      000000 0000  . . . .

ALTN      001809 0016  . . . .  ALTN SUMU   DIST  123

HOLD      003182 0029  . . . .

EXTRA     000000 0000  . . . .  ZFW 176631      PAYLOAD 043495

TTL AT TO 097739 1410  . . . .                  DIST  6265

REQD      098283 1420  . . . .

 

As you can see require fuel is 98283.

 

With TOPCAT (less accurate) I obtain 84000KGS.

 

In conclusion, you can't fly this route in one step, but you have stop somewhere. I came in this error reading from Martinar scheduled flight table, and supposed that EHAM/SAEZ was flown in one shot.

 

 

 

    

Well, you could do it nonstop but you do need so much fuel that very little payload is left... so no money can be made.

Can you explain how you got the zfw ? in your new calculations you come to 176.631 ? You came to 160.065 in your first email with the same payload...

 

Dick R.

Well, you could do it nonstop but you do need so much fuel that very little payload is left... so no money can be made.

 

That's true!

Can you explain how you got the zfw ? in your new calculations you come to 176.631 ? You came to 160.065 in your first email with the same payload...

 

Simply confusing some numbers with different tools.

 

FSBuild has an EMPTY WEIGHT of 131.136, which summed is 174.631

TOPCAT has a DOW (EMPTY WEIGHT) of 113.850, which summed is 157.345

 

I don't know why there is this difference (17286 KGS) with same aircraft model, both cargos. Even if I think TOPCAT it's more accurate about aircraft weights.

 

Dick, sorry, but where you could find that EHAM/SAEZ stopped in KMIA? I'm curios, made a google search but nothing....

Riccardo,

 

here is the flight and it is clearly shown, that there is an intermediate stop at KMIA:

 

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MPH1155/history/20130507/0040Z/KMIA/SAEZ

The 131.136 that FsBuild is giving is way to heavy. That looks more like the DOW for the passenger version. The 113.850 that Topcat is giving is closer. The PMDG loadmanager gives 113.849.

 

As to the routing of the MP aircraft, I guess you could look at the EHAM airport site on their freighter actual arrival and departures times. Maybe MIA and EZE also give actual arrivals/departures of freighter aircraft.

 

This site gives you the routings and whereabouts of the MP (or any other ) aircraft: http://www.acarsd.org/Fleetlist_MPH_Martinair.html and if you go there you see a complete rotation of a flight: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/PHMCS. You can also search for other aircraft/registrations.

 

The reason why the EZE flights are going via MIA is not only fuel, in that case they could have gone via the Canary Islands which would make a shorter route. They go via MIA because they also carry cargo ams-mia and also cargo mia-eze and I would guess the two sectors together could give more revenue that ams to eze by itself. Not even sure if ams could generate enough cargo to fill all the frequencies.

 

b rdgs Dick

Many and many thanks Dick, very useful links and explanation.

fuelplanner.com is a good tool for an approximate calculation, but it's more accurate to calculate it directly in the FMS. i know it's less realistic but is the best way we the poor serious simmers have to get it. Remember you have to insert wind and temperature data to get a more accurate calculation, specially in long haul flights. Besides, try a lower cost index, I use 75 that is a real CI a MD11 cargo operator uses (i have a friend who is MD11 captain in that airline).