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Guest metamarty

Piracy and Flight Sims.

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Yes, I know, you're thinking not another piracy thread, but I really would like some answers on this.How come the flight sim community is so absolutely anal about piracy, suspected piracy, copyright, and etc?I'm not just talking about commercial products. Any person who has been in this hobby since around FS5 knows exactly what I am talking about.When BAO released Flight Shop, there was an explosion of freeware planes, and panels for flight simulator that had not been around before. And, before you could say "download" there were threads about how so and so had "pirated" their plane and how "so and so" had pirated their gauge.In some cases, a developer had intentionally swiped a guage or a piece of a panel. In others, the software publisher was completely unaware of the act, insisting that they only published what was provided by the developer. Good companies have been literally "destroyed" by the zealous pirate hunters, even when that company has tried to compensate the "victims" in good faith. For years, debates have been fueled. Screenshots passed, and TREMENDOUS energies levied to destroy "the pirate". Lawsuits and threats have been levied outlining "damages" that are non-monetary in nature.And in this war, there have been many casualties.Consider the fine replacement textures that Cas Stevens had provided for the default 737, 777, and 747 in FS2002. All it took was one accuser to drag Cas' name through the mud and claim that he ripped off some textures. It was later discovered that the claim was baseless, but the damage had been done. Cas' name had been tainted, and the amount of seething hatred that erupted from these forums had soured him for good. Too bad too, I was anticipating his textures for the Dash-8's. But they won't be around.I have seen licenses for use for FREEWARE that indicates that it takes written permission, a blood sample, and the first born child of a person simply to repaint a model. Too bad. My dad worked for Eastern. I would love to have painted a model for him and given him a tribute. In many cases, I can't, even if I recognize the copyright of each and every 20 people involved in the model, I still am out of luck. (Did I forget to mention it's freeware?)Threats of lawsuits and closing down websites would often pursue anyone who wittingly or unwittingly contained files that was considered "illicit".The height of this nonsense would climax during the fueled discussions that would erupt from the elitists who owned the professional version when someone who owned "standard" would ask about getting guages for a 'professional version only' panel. Instead of helping a person find an alternate gauge, or tell them to download the FS2000 patch. It was much easier to blast the offender on a 20 person deep thread on how this guy "should have bought professional edition" or some other such crap.Didn't matter that the Microsoft patch for FS2000 was readily available and contained 90% of the gauges needed. Any wetnose who dared asked that question was threatened by the community, accused of piracy of the highest degree, and pratically drummed out on their butts!Which brings me to my point. What in God's name has made the average simmer so darn self righteous? Does the average Flight Simulator enthusiest, always drive the speed limit, never run a red light, never lie on their taxes, never lie to get out of trouble? Has the average Flight Simmmer ever bent the FAA regulations when flying? No? Does the average Flight Simulator owner live such an outstanding life that they can afford to live in glass houses? How Many ******* Christs do we have in our midst that find it so easy to pass judgement before the facts are laid out?Some of the actions from our fellow simmers would make the RIAA (known for going to extremes) look tame.I know I will get flamed from many of you, and it is you that I am telling to lighten up. Is it possible, in our hobby, for some of us to be against piracy, but also feel that it is mainly the actions of those who are so fanatical about eliminating it, that are ruining this hobby for the rest of us?It's all about power guys. We love to wield the big stick. Thus when some snot nosed kid starts talkin about "warez" or some poor schmuck comes in asking for (GASP!!) a gauge, the character assasinations begin. The beatings have begun! The line forms here.THAT folks is the danger we face. Like Ahab, and his obsessive search for Moby Dick, we are in danger of ruining our own hobbies because we are so uncivil to each other. And like Ahab, it wasn't Moby Dick himself that led to Ahab's fall, it was the hunt for the whale that brought about the destruction.Is the casual pirate worth all that? Some of you think so. Some of you will not rest until every single stinking pirate is nailed to a wall and exposed for the thief that he is. It is this mentality that forces us to deal with over the top and expensive anti-piracy methods. It is this mentality that seems to give some companies the right to question how I use my computer. They may not "know" who I am, but they sure know when I do something to my computer.Guess what. Crime, in some form, is the price we pay for a free society. We are able to shop in Wal-Mart without getting stripped search on the way out, because we live in a "free" society. We value our privacy, and in such, we pay for it. Does that mean I'm for piracy, No, I'm against it. But I also know that the majority of pirates are not even in the same demographic that appeals to flight simulation.I don't condone piracy in anyway. But I have also been around this hobby to know, that it's the "cure" that is killing the patient, not the "disease".My .02 worth

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Well... Someone finally said what needed to be said for so long... I for one would like to thankyou for posting this. People my finally stop acting like bickering 5 year olds fighting over the toy choo-choo. Tisk Tisk

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Well done for an honest (and accurate) statement. A lot of people need to lighten up in this flight simulation business. Some have very good reason to be critical, but others are just taking the ####.Chris Low,ENGLAND.

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>How come the flight sim community is so absolutely anal about>piracy, suspected piracy, copyright, and etc?>The flightsim community is one of THE most responsible when it comes to piracy, by which I mean zero-tollerance.>For years, debates have been fueled. Screenshots passed, and>TREMENDOUS energies levied to destroy "the pirate". Lawsuits>and threats have been levied outlining "damages" that are>non-monetary in nature.>One needs to start at the core. Leave a small digression go unpunished and next time a large one will be seen as only a small step up and 'not so bad anyway' so why bother?>I have seen licenses for use for FREEWARE that indicates that>it takes written permission, a blood sample, and the first>born child of a person simply to repaint a model. Too bad. >My dad worked for Eastern. I would love to have painted a>model for him and given him a tribute. In many cases, I>can't, even if I recognize the copyright of each and every 20>people involved in the model, I still am out of luck. (Did I>forget to mention it's freeware?)>Maybe some freeware designers take their licenses too far, but I can see their point.They constantly see their works being taken by others and distributed with any credits and copyright notices removed. Some have after that been accused of stealing the product and releasing it under their own name even...For a lot of freeware designers there is a dream of one day being hired by a commercial group or company. Your freeware is your businesscard and resume in that. As such it's important and should be protected.>The height of this nonsense would climax during the fueled>discussions that would erupt from the elitists who owned the>professional version when someone who owned "standard" would>ask about getting guages for a 'professional version only'>panel. Instead of helping a person find an alternate gauge,>or tell them to download the FS2000 patch. It was much easier>to blast the offender on a 20 person deep thread on how this>guy "should have bought professional edition" or some other>such crap.>So you're advocating people stealing from Microsoft in order to get around their decision to not buy the Pro version?Because publishing those gauges online (as several sites have done, including respected ones) IS software piracy and thus theft.If people want those gauges they have to buy the Pro version. Most of these people don't even WANT an alternative even if there is one.>Didn't matter that the Microsoft patch for FS2000 was readily>available and contained 90% of the gauges needed. Any wetnose>who dared asked that question was threatened by the community,>accused of piracy of the highest degree, and pratically>drummed out on their butts!>It also contained a license agreement that precluded the use with any product except FS2000 Pro for which it was released!>Which brings me to my point. What in God's name has made the>average simmer so darn self righteous? Does the average>Flight Simulator enthusiest, always drive the speed limit,>never run a red light, never lie on their taxes, never lie to>get out of trouble? Has the average Flight Simmmer ever bent>the FAA regulations when flying? No? speedlimit? Usuallyred lights? always.taxes? alwaysFAA? nothing to do with them.I don't break the law, inless not breaking it is worse than breaking it (for example if I keep to the limit I'll be rammed from behind).>I know I will get flamed from many of you, and it is you that>I am telling to lighten up. >You're telling us that casual piracy is OK, which it is NOT.>Is it possible, in our hobby, for some of us to be against>piracy, but also feel that it is mainly the actions of those>who are so fanatical about eliminating it, that are ruining>this hobby for the rest of us?>It's ruining it only for the (prospective) pirates, and I for one won't miss them (in fact, I'd rather see them gone).>Is the casual pirate worth all that? Some of you think so. >Some of you will not rest until every single stinking pirate>is nailed to a wall and exposed for the thief that he is. It>is this mentality that forces us to deal with over the top and>expensive anti-piracy methods. It is this mentality that>seems to give some companies the right to question how I use>my computer. They may not "know" who I am, but they sure know>when I do something to my computer.>Today's casual pirate is tomorrow's reseller of pirated software.Too many people (especially the younger generation) have no concept of ownership (except of course that they know exceptionally well what belongs to them, which is everything).That's got to be stopped before it destroys the community, not people guarding against it!>Guess what. Crime, in some form, is the price we pay for a>free society. We are able to shop in Wal-Mart without getting>stripped search on the way out, because we live in a "free">society. We value our privacy, and in such, we pay for it. No, you don't pay for it.The person you steal from pays for it! And in this market that person is me (and the other honest users) and I won't sit idle while you rob my bank.

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YES YES & YES!!!Thanks for the GREAT WRITEUP!I am sick and tired of all the Yo Righteous Holier than thou's for my whole life.It's like the mother and father that beat me when I was a kid for being a kid and went to church every Sunday!The only BAD thing I can see people arguing is that SOME people don't live in a free society and LIKE being told every little thing to do.Actually some people can't think for themselves and believe it's ok to just walk around repeating what everyone else told them is right!

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>The flightsim community is one of THE most responsible when it>comes to piracy, by which I mean zero-tollerance.Which would be ok, if the "community" were always right, but how many times has it been "wrong"? How many times has it gone on a witch hunt armed with only here say and rumor? >>One needs to start at the core. Leave a small digression go>unpunished and next time a large one will be seen as only a>small step up and 'not so bad anyway' so why bother?Who made you judge jury and executioner? If you are truly concerned about piracy, and have SOME EVIDENCE, then turn the offender in and let our officials prosecute. Any thing else is vigilante justice at best, and mob rules at worse.>Maybe some freeware designers take their licenses too far, but>I can see their point.>They constantly see their works being taken by others and>distributed with any credits and copyright notices removed.>Some have after that been accused of stealing the product and>releasing it under their own name even...>For a lot of freeware designers there is a dream of one day>being hired by a commercial group or company. Your freeware is>your businesscard and resume in that. As such it's important>and should be protected.First of all, no one is going to be hired just on the files themselves. The REAL developer will have the source files used to create the model and other evidence that he is the real developer. Plus that does not excuse a developer to lobby charges of theft unless it is founded in evidence. In some cases, theft has occurred. In MOST cases, it is a case of pure ignorance. Yet the punishment is the same. Hey, I got a plan, lets execute all those who are suspected of murder, that way we can make sure that we get ALL the murderers as well.>.>>>So you're advocating people stealing from Microsoft in order>to get around their decision to not buy the Pro version?>Because publishing those gauges online (as several sites have>done, including respected ones) IS software piracy and thus>theft.>If people want those gauges they have to buy the Pro version.>Most of these people don't even WANT an alternative even if>there is one.>>Didn't matter that the Microsoft patch for FS2000 was>readily>>available and contained 90% of the gauges needed. Any>wetnose>>who dared asked that question was threatened by the>community,>>accused of piracy of the highest degree, and pratically>>drummed out on their butts!>>>It also contained a license agreement that precluded the use>with any product except FS2000 Pro for which it was released!Read any good EULA's lately? I think you will find that when people install an operating system on more than one system, or FS on more than one system, even if it is theirs, they are pirating as well. Yet I don't see the torches and pitchforks come out for that. The truth is, the Piracy Hunters are quick to see other's piracy, but turn a blind eye to their own. How many Piracy hunters have any MP3's that they don't have the album for? How many repaints of an airliner contain the copyright of the logos that are being used? Is using the patch for gauges in FS2002 a violation of copyright? Probably. But speeding is a crime that we all commit everyday to. The copyright limitations are in place to have a means to prosecute the "heinous" offenders. Microsoft has very little care for the little fish who suplements his FS2002 experience with an FS2000 pro patch. Yet if our Friends from Papa Tango were to develop another piece of mung, with Microsoft copyrighted material, they would be shut down.>Which brings me to my point. What in God's name has made>the>>average simmer so darn self righteous? Does the average>>Flight Simulator enthusiest, always drive the speed limit,>>never run a red light, never lie on their taxes, never lie>to>>get out of trouble? Has the average Flight Simmmer ever>bent>>the FAA regulations when flying? No? >speedlimit? Usually>red lights? always.>taxes? always>FAA? nothing to do with them.>I don't break the law, inless not breaking it is worse than>breaking it (for example if I keep to the limit I'll be rammed>from behind).Easy to justify breaking laws when it is YOU doing it. Officer, I can't travel the speed limit because I will get "rammed" is just as lame an excuse as I am not going to spend an extra $20 bucks for Flight Simulator Pro just for 3 gauges.>>I know I will get flamed from many of you, and it is you>that>>I am telling to lighten up. >>>You're telling us that casual piracy is OK, which it is NOT.No I am not, and you make my point below perfectly. Piracy is breaking the law, plain and simple. So is speeding, litering, jaywalking. What I am saying, is that it is wrong to paint your life in "shades of grey" in all areas, but then maintain a black and white view of piracy. Remember Prohibition? At one time it was against the law to drink. It was illegal. But if you remember history, the crime, the costs, and overall hassles that grew from "that law" were so great that the cost of enforcing the law, far outweighed the benefits of the law itself.The music industry is in a similar jam. They are so concerned with protecting their copyrights, that they are turning a blind eye to the consumer. Is file sharing on Kaaza wrong. You bet your sweet bippy it is. But it is so common because of the recording industry's failure to focus on the needs of the customer. Ever since the recording industry did away with "singles", The consumer has had to purchase a $15 to $18 dollar CD just to get one song. Hmm, that sounds familiar.>>Is it possible, in our hobby, for some of us to be against>>piracy, but also feel that it is mainly the actions of those>>who are so fanatical about eliminating it, that are ruining>>this hobby for the rest of us?>>>It's ruining it only for the (prospective) pirates, and I for>one won't miss them (in fact, I'd rather see them gone).Oh really. Ask Cas Stephens how much of a warm and fuzzy he has about the flight sim community after being wrongly accused of piracy. Yeah. He's feeling peachy. And how about the folks who have had to hassle with all the "anti-piracy" protection. CD-Keys, Dongles, CD's in drives, Activation keys. Protected disks.I for one would love to be able to backup my Flight Sim disks, but am unable to. I hate piracy. But I don't assume that everyone out there is a pirate in-waiting either. You wouldn't dare allow yourself to be pat searched at Wal-Mart as a part of their "anti-shoplifting" program, yet you will go through all sorts of inconvenience from waiting several days for "activation keys" to be e-mailed, to having to digout CD-Keys during each install, to not being able to even make a backup of your CD's.Many of you righteous ones go to the very "warez" sites you preach against so that you can download an illegal reversed engineered copy of the .exe so that you don't have to put your original CD in the drive. What's that I smell, Hypocricy?>>Is the casual pirate worth all that? Some of you think so. >>Some of you will not rest until every single stinking pirate>>is nailed to a wall and exposed for the thief that he is. >It>>is this mentality that forces us to deal with over the top>and>>expensive anti-piracy methods. It is this mentality that>>seems to give some companies the right to question how I use>>my computer. They may not "know" who I am, but they sure>know>>when I do something to my computer.>>>Today's casual pirate is tomorrow's reseller of pirated>software.>Too many people (especially the younger generation) have no>concept of ownership (except of course that they know>exceptionally well what belongs to them, which is>everything).>That's got to be stopped before it destroys the community, not>people guarding against it!Oh, so today's dope smoker is tomorrows heroin dealer. Is that what your saying? Today's casual drinker is tomorrows alcoholic? I was a NOT-SO casual pirate, and I thank you, but I do not have any more pirated software in my stable, and have not had any for over 18 years.The only place where the "reselling" of pirated software takes place on any significant level is in burgeoning third world countries and Asia where copyright laws of either weak or non-existant. When was the last time you were able to go in a store, or ebay and purchase "pirated" software. Hell, it is so available, that most people would laugh at you if you even TRIED to sell it. So I doubt if little Johnny 13 year old pirate is gonna open a Piratz-R-US store anytime in the near future. >>>Guess what. Crime, in some form, is the price we pay for a>>free society. We are able to shop in Wal-Mart without>getting>>stripped search on the way out, because we live in a "free">>society. We value our privacy, and in such, we pay for it.>No, you don't pay for it.>The person you steal from pays for it! And in this market that>person is me (and the other honest users) and I won't sit idle>while you rob my bank.>Oh look here, You've made my point exactly. Since I obviously don't agree with your views, you have now labeled me a thief. You have even called me dishonest. Thank you for proving my point so eloquently. Yes, I WAS a pirate many many years ago, but have since erased all my copyrighted software, movies, and music.But, you, knowing nothing about me, except that perhaps I feel that the overzealous piracy witch hunts done by the community does more harm than good, you have accused me of being a thief. With no due process, With no evidence, with No case. Thank you for making my point. And the next time you want to call me a thief with no evidence and no due process, perhaps you should look at laws concerning libel. This folks is EXACTLY what I am talking about. The need to carry the big stick, the need to accuse those who think differently than you of a crime. That is what is destroying our community. I thought we all shared a love of flight simulation, not of amatuer litigation. At least we all know where our next round of trial lawyers will come from (God help us all (grin!!!))

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Along with Elrond for speaker, I vote for wathomas777 as well. WELL done and BRAVO! I am still ROFLMAO on this: "Yet I don't see the torches and pitchforks come out for that."Awesome work and keep it up but unfortunately, the effect that you seek may just be the people who will want to keep you quiet.It is AMAZING that there is NO WAY to stop either side of these debates but I am from the school if it ain't hurting you then leave em alone!! I got better things to do then sit next to my living room window to see what the neighbors are arguing about now!That's called the nosey neighbor and I always hated the one that lived next to me when I was a kid and on some level I was glad when she was gone since she accomplished NOTHING AT ALL but intruding on my privacy!

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Thank you wathomas777 for clearly voicing the words I have not had the time to put to paper.

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You may stop this individual, but you can't stop them all...

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hi,Well I have to say I'm on Wathomas777's side on this one. Great write up wathomas777!!! I couldent agree more!!! :-)Andrew

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>Actually some people can't think for themselves and believe>it's ok to just walk around repeating what everyone else told>them is right!There certainly is an element of truth in that. The 'pile-on/me too' crowd with nothing invested, too much free time, and usually anonymity. Some seem to miss the point those of us who are trying to minimise the problem are arguing. Likely it is deliberate obsfucation, however, for the record :1. No-one is on a crusade; 2. nobody is after them (a Hall of Shame equivalent); and3. no developer I know wants to hound or "nail hides" (the theives) to a tasteless wall of shame as someone said recently.We don't care who they are, because to us, they are non-persons.Those of us who are objecting to piracy (with the limited means we have available) only seek to disempower those who would steal. Rendering them irrelevant is all we aim for. This is not The Soprano's and we could care less who they are. Or, were.The point is we won't work to bring them pleasure. It's just healthier (for us) to have them off the radar just like some customers who are not able to be civil, or pleasant, who we simply let go.Life's too short. This is meant to be fun. We like having fun too, remember.Rgds,.....Steve SmallCanberra, Australiahttp://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

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I really think the difference is that there is that in this community, piracy is something that people take personally. It's a matter of pride. Now let me explain this for a sec so that I don't get deluged.Most developers, are not out there developing planes, panels, and addons simply for their own use. They get something out of it. It may not be monetary, but the get something.The freeware developer gets the praise from his peers. The Kudo's, the pride, the "love". When a fellow freeware developer takes that creation and makes it his own, he's stealing the guys "love" and that hurts baby. And it is especially bad when a payware developer does it, because not only does he steal the developers thunder, but then goes on to make money on it. Talk about a double dose of "up yours"At least that is what the freeware developer feels. Thus, he turns to his only outlet and cries foul to the community and the Flame wars begin.Every developer takes an act of piracy as if it were directed towards them personally. And I can understand that feeling. Many payware developers today are the freeware developers of yesterday. Thus the same feelings of hurt and betrayal apply. So now, when they have some capital, they decide to incorporate very elaborate anti-piracy means to prevent that. The same holds true about the FS PRO vs FS STANDARD debate. The ownerr of the Pro version (most likely) purchased it for the feeling of "love" and acceptance within the community. I purchased FS2000 pro because Seattle was offered as a High Detailed city in FS2000 pro only. That was my "love". The features in FS2002 for me, didn't really convince me to buy Pro, since I had all the planes from FS2000 except the Beech Baron. But, when some snot nosed kid comes in and asks for the Beech Baron that we paid good money for, we take it personally and launch into the guy. And finally, look at the whole thing regarding the beta testers. Right now for the last several weeks, the FS2004 beta testers have gotten ALL THE LOVE. They have been the center of attention since the NDA has been lifted. Not only did they get a free peek of the upcoming release, but they have been playing it now for the last three weeks.And as all of us "regulars" beg at their tables for their scraps of food, is it any wonder why some folks might want to fire up kaaza and download a "preview" for ourselves, and pose as one of the "elite"? I mean, here's a guy who says to himself. "I'm buying the first day that it comes out. I've already pre purchased it from AVSIM, so what's wrong with a little preview? Also, I can use the CD crack so I can protect my valuable investment."Remember guys. In the flight sim community, it's all about acceptance. We all want to stand up and get a nod, or a "great post" or a "great panel" bit from our peers. It makes us feel good. For pirates it's the same thing. It's not about the actual "file", it's about having it. How many people spend hours upon hours ripping down a movie that is nothing more than a handicam smuggled in. I mean, who would BUY that. BUT to be the FIRST to offer the hottest movie out there regardless of quality, THAT's SOMETHING.I may be deluded, but I honestly feel that MOST of us who frequent this board, and are heavy into simming, are honest customers who purchase everything we need to. Those who don't pay for Flight Sim, or it's addons don't place any value to it anyway, and thus would probably not buy it in the first place. If a copy of Visual C+++ lands into a 13 year olds computer and that 13 year old never even uses the product, can Microsoft really count that as a lost sale?The most insideous pirates out there are not the 13 year old johnnies who are simply "collecting files", or a guy looking for a gauge, or a sap who wants 2 weeks of center stage by answering questions about FS2004.It's the payware developer who with malice of forethought puruses the freeware files of sites like these and intentionally culls the best freeware only to then package it up and try to sell it as their own.Those are the true villans in my eyes, and that is who the hunt should be levied for. My .02Will.

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I guess in this age of "immediate gratification" one would expect some people to go get an illegal copy of some software so they feel like the belong to an "elite" group.Well, to those people I say "kiss my grits!"I guess maybe it is better for software companies not to ever allow beta testers to speak publicly about the product, or for the companies never to release GOLD copies.That way the weak willed won't have the urge to upload/download this software, or to feel "left out" when the true beta testers start sharing with the public.If WE (all software users) continue to ABUSE the freedoms we have, one day we will find that we will have lost those same freedoms.IMHO.http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg"I am the keeper of the cheese; you are the lemon merchant"

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>I really think the difference is that there is that in this>community, piracy is something that people take personally.>It's a matter of pride. >It's also a matter of jobs, food on the table, for a lot of people.I may not make my money creating FS addons but I DO make my money creating software.I see people using pirated development tools to create software which they then sell.I even see people asking for ways to pirate tools that prevent people form pirating the software they're writing (the ultimate irony IMO).That's what it's all about, not someone's hurt pride.>Most developers, are not out there developing planes, panels,>and addons simply for their own use. They get something out>of it. It may not be monetary, but the get something.>>The freeware developer gets the praise from his peers. The>Kudo's, the pride, the "love". >That fame can lead to money, if and when that person is then asked to join a commercial group (as happens regularly).Take that fame away by removing that product as being created by that person (20 others call it their own too, now who was the actual creator?) and that person looses his potential for a job and thus income.>Every developer takes an act of piracy as if it were directed>towards them personally. And I can understand that feeling. >Many payware developers today are the freeware developers of>yesterday. Thus the same feelings of hurt and betrayal apply.> So now, when they have some capital, they decide to>incorporate very elaborate anti-piracy means to prevent that. >Every act of piracy IS directed at every developer personally.Each time some piece of software gets pirated anywhere in the world it's another chip in all of our jobs and our potential to make a living doing what we love and excel at.Every piece of pirated software reduces my marketability and thus the price I can ask for my work, the payment I can earn from my employer, until at some point it's become such a natural thing to use pirated crap that noone hires people anymore to create software for them because it's become accepted to use a pirated piece of software instead.I've installed computers for people many times. I've for the last several years not met a single person who didn't expect me to throw in pirated copies of Windows and MS Office (something I steadfastly refuse, I tell them how much it will cost for me to get it for them and please pay in advance).And that attitude is getting worse all the time. 90% of entertainment titles in use are now pirated, 75% of operating systems and some 35-50% of business applications (and among private users 75% or more, that number is lower only because most companies (still) do purchase their licenses.I've colleagues who think it so natural to use a pirated version that they speak openly about it at work, even knowing how I think about it.That's what has to change, and if that means going after every single 13 year old who uses a pirated FS addon than that's what it takes.And in my opinion that IS what it takes, because that 13 year old is still pliable and might be taught that piracy is NOT "cool" or "OK" and is actually a crime.>But, when some snot nosed kid comes in and asks for the Beech>Baron that we paid good money for, we take it personally and>launch into the guy. >Most people will just tell them they should have gotten the Pro version instead.I WILL violently pursue those who actually give that snotnosed kid that Baron, as they know full well what they're doing. That kid gets a warning, and most will take it and look for alternatives (which are aplenty).>And as all of us "regulars" beg at their tables for their>scraps of food, is it any wonder why some folks might want to>fire up kaaza and download a "preview" for ourselves, and pose>as one of the "elite"? I mean, here's a guy who says to>himself. "I'm buying the first day that it comes out. I've>already pre purchased it from AVSIM, so what's wrong with a>little preview? Also, I can use the CD crack so I can protect>my valuable investment.">It's still piracy. While maybe not AS bad as not buying the official version, it does lead to that.Maybe not for you, but many will just not buy it as they have it anyway so why spend the money now eh?And of course most people who get a pirated version have no inclination to buy the official product at all, not now and not ever.>Remember guys. In the flight sim community, it's all about>acceptance. We all want to stand up and get a nod, or a>"great post" or a "great panel" bit from our peers. It makes>us feel good. >I don't and refuse to EVER accept pirates or their actions.Once you start down that path there is no end.>I may be deluded, but I honestly feel that MOST of us who>frequent this board, and are heavy into simming, are honest>customers who purchase everything we need to. Those who don't>pay for Flight Sim, or it's addons don't place any value to it>anyway, and thus would probably not buy it in the first place.> If they wouldn't buy it in the first place, why is it good enough to download and play without paying for the right?So according to you it's OK for me to use a pirated version of FS2004 if I consider the

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>I guess in this age of "immediate gratification" one would>expect some people to go get an illegal copy of some software>so they feel like the belong to an "elite" group.>Exactly. Plus of course they don't consider what they're doing to be wrong at all, they consider it natural and right (even going so far as saying that they're "punishing large corporations for overcharging".>I guess maybe it is better for software companies not to ever>allow beta testers to speak publicly about the product, or for>the companies never to release GOLD copies.>Yes, that would be better. Or better yet have NO external beta at all and only have internal beta programs.Would for a while play hell on software that needs to run on many different hardware combinations, and only large companies can get around that a bit, but that's the price (especially as most of what is leaked on P2P networks and pirated CDs are beta versions put out by unscrupulous external testers.>If WE (all software users) continue to ABUSE the freedoms we>have, one day we will find that we will have lost those same>freedoms.>I'd make that stronger and say "if WE (all software users) continue to accept the ABUSE of the freedom we have by ourselves and others, one day we will find we will have lost those same freedoms".

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Basically this is the same as insurance fraud."Well everyone does it. Those insurance companies have SO MUCH money, why can't I get some? They won't miss it. It is a victimless crime."Have you wondered why your insurance premiums are so high?http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg"I am the keeper of the cheese; you are the lemon merchant"

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Jeroen:I agree with both of you to an extent, but I think you need to open up a little and read what he's saying, because he does have a point. Piracy is not necessarily personal, because a pirate who TRULY wants the product to USE IT likes the developer. There are many reasons why some people pirate software, and I think Will has some interesting points that are logic. I don't condone piracy, but what if somebody simply cannot afford a product and he pirates it, can you consider that a lost sale? FS software is not like, fot example, food. There's no limited amounts, so the pirate is not taking merchandise that you'd be selling to anyone else. I think the BIG pirate is the one that CAN buy the product and doesn't because he can get it for free.(digs trench in backyard, hides in it) :-lol Daniel Pimentel

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If I cannot afford a new car, makes that simple fact my theft of that car suddenly OK?Or maybe I want a new computer but I have no money at the moment (quite probable...), should I just go into a store and steal one?In your reasoning that should be condoned because I wouldn't have bought it anyway...

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I know. On the other end of that equation I've been cheated by insurance companies who refused to pay the insured value even after I handed over receipts claiming that the value I claimed was less than that...In the end I got only sbout a third of the value I'd paid premiums over.1/3 deducted for their reasoning that the actual value was less1/3 deducted for their reasoning I was trying to cheat them...Given such random acts (and it happened more than once) of insurance companies I am starting to understand why people claim sums that are higher than the actual value, maybe after the deductions you'll get what you're really due...

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No, in my views there's a limited amount of cars and computers, and they are UNITS. The one you'd be taking could be sold to somebody else, so the profits ARE hurt because the car's money compensates for the cost to assemble it. But in a piece of software, is a pirate taking a copy of the software that someone else would have bought? That's what I am saying. I agree that piracy MUST be fought against, but I think the wrong people are being targeted. There's no loss if people don't buy the product, because there's an unlimited amount. So if you cannot buy in the first place, you're not hurting the developer's sales. If you CAN buy, on the other hand...Daniel Pimentel

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>I know. On the other end of that equation I've been cheated>by insurance companies who refused to pay the insured value>even after I handed over receipts claiming that the value I>claimed was less than that...>>In the end I got only sbout a third of the value I'd paid>premiums over.>1/3 deducted for their reasoning that the actual value was>less>1/3 deducted for their reasoning I was trying to cheat>them...>>Given such random acts (and it happened more than once) of>insurance companies I am starting to understand why people>claim sums that are higher than the actual value, maybe after>the deductions you'll get what you're really due...A little creative rewording:On the other end of that equation I've been cheated by FS add-on makers who refused to deliver reinstall keys even after I handed over receipts claiming that I was pirating their software...In the end I finaly got got a final reinstall key for the software I'd paid for. But that was after it had costs me a considerable amount of time and e-mails with them. They even told me not to ask for further keys for they where reasoning I was trying to cheat them...Given such random acts (and it happened more than once) ofadd-on makers I am starting to understand why people use pirated copies, and only buy the add-on after it is discounted maybe after the deductions you'll get what you're really due...See Jeroen you're almost a pirate :-)Shame on you with your until now fully righteous antipiracy stand.

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:-lolDaniel Pimentel

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I think there are several points here that are worth raising. The first one is that there is a difference between software and a solid object such as a car or a computer.Part of the criminal law, certainly here in the UK, uses terminology that includes preventing the rightful owner from using what has been taken. If I stole a car, I would be preventing the rightful owner from using it. If I take a copy of someone's software, they still have it. I haven't stopped them using it.That doesn't mean to say that it isn't theft, but copying software is a different kind of theft from taking an object which cannot be identically and easily reproduced, which is the flaw in your argument above. I also think that is why so many people find it 'more acceptable' than physical theft.The second point is that many of the true pirates really *do* have no interest in the software they copy. Yes, there will be people who copy something specifically because they want it, but on the whole, from experience, the pirates I have come across are more interested in how big their collection is than what is in it... Except that the newer the version and more expensive the package, the better. You won't find Lago or FSD packages on most Warez sites, because most people on the planet would say "Who?" and then download 3d Studio or AutoCAD, which they have no intention of using, because they know what that is and it would cost them a lot of money to buy!My final point is that I understood the original poster's comment to be that some Freeware authors are ridiculously overboard with their terms and conditions of use. I find that is entirely fair and accurate. "Don't put this on a CD" - fine, "Don't make money from this" - again, not a problem. "Credit me as the author of this work" - no problem at all, that's the law! "Don't touch, modify, repaint, rename the directory of or anything else!" - Er... what exactly are you trying to protect, with that?That isn't a piracy issue, which is what this thread has become (again), it's a reality check that I think a few people could do with looking at. It's also a far more important topic to most people interested in flightsim than Piracy. The vast majority of people here, I suspect, are not pirates with thousands of pounds worth of illegal software on their hard drives. Many probably do wish, though, that there was a livery available for some very good aircraft in their 'own' airline's colours that they can't have because of overly restrictive requirements from certain authors.(Updated to fix typo.)Ian P.

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