heading limiter, anyone using it?

[windshearDK 52]

I've never really felt any need of it, have you? What are the real life routines with this?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

There was a thread in here that explained it all, but the gist of it is that it is only HDG SEL utilizes this selector, and the selector is reduced by airline SOP at certain points.  As an example, the bank limiter is set to 10 at cruise (or similar.)

 

The operative term here is airline SOP.  Its use is not regulated, or required.

[mosteen 111]

If you meen bank angle limiter, I have used it (not in rw), in my VA we have some charter flights for cargo (GSS), at one occation I was hauling polo ponies into Kentucky from Argentina with the MD-11, for that cargo the limit was 15 degree banks and 1000 ft/min. descent and climb. The bank angle limiter in the MD works only when A/P is in HDG SEL, not when commanded by FMS so you can fly with A/P but not LNAV.

 

After discussing my needs with ATC, I flew the arrivals and approaches with long shallow descents and wide turns

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

in my VA we have some charter flights for cargo (GSS), at one occation I was hauling polo ponies into Kentucky from Argentina with the MD-11, for that cargo the limit was 15 degree banks and 1000 ft/min. descent and climb.

 

...and this is why VAs bother me.

 

First, bank angle doesn't affect passengers(/living cargo) because of the way the forces of flight work (in normal flight conditions.)  The whole entire way an aircraft is allowed to turn is through lift translating from a wholly vertical to a partially lateral force.  The end result is - if you made a completely coordinated turn at a relatively slow roll rate with no windows - people wouldn't even know you're turning because the force is down through the floor.  Even if you made the g argument that higher bank turns induce more gs, a 30 degree turn gets you about 1.15 g, which is hardly noticeable (and polo ponies would hardly care, given their normal physical routine.)

 

Second, vertical speed would only matter for the pressurization trying to keep up with your changing altitude.  Even then, with a pressurized main deck, the cabin pressure is going to come up anyway.

 

I mean...interesting take on trying to simulate non-normal operations, but kinda misguided.

 

Sorry...rant over...

Carry on  :blink:

[Spin737 102]

At KAL, they used it on engine out procedures. 15deg until above the maneuvering bug.

 

I'll use it at cruise if I'm given a vector, just to keep things as smooth as possible for the paying customers. The rate of roll is smaller if it's going to a more shallow bank, so it might be a bit more comfy.

[mosteen 111]

...and this is why VAs bother me.

 

First, bank angle doesn't affect passengers(/living cargo) because of the way the forces of flight work (in normal flight conditions.) The whole entire way an aircraft is allowed to turn is through lift translating from a wholly vertical to a partially lateral force. The end result is - if you made a completely coordinated turn at a relatively slow roll rate with no windows - people wouldn't even know you're turning because the force is down through the floor. Even if you made the g argument that higher bank turns induce more gs, a 30 degree turn gets you about 1.15 g, which is hardly noticeable (and polo ponies would hardly care, given their normal physical routine.)

 

Second, vertical speed would only matter for the pressurization trying to keep up with your changing altitude. Even then, with a pressurized main deck, the cabin pressure is going to come up anyway.

 

I mean...interesting take on trying to simulate non-normal operations, but kinda misguided.

 

Sorry...rant over...

Carry on :blink:

No need to be sorry Kyle, rant appreciated I never thought about the rw logics, or the possible lack of such, behind this particular mission, but I love to learn.

 

The mission itself was a bit refreshing, as I had to figure out how the bank angle limiter worked, and had to plan differently than I usually do, and flying online, I had to get ATC in on the game too.

 

I know you don't care for VA's much, but for me, it gives a certain feel of purpose and a sense of accomplishment for my flights.

 

Cheers mate,

[dmncnpilot 39]

In the real world I usd it. It's all about passenger comfort. I use it outside the terminal area.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

 

 

The mission itself was a bit refreshing, as I had to figure out how the bank angle limiter worked, and had to plan differently than I usually do, and flying online, I had to get ATC in on the game too.

 

Yeah, I won't fault it for trying to push people out of the norm.  It's a little misguided in the application, but the idea of non-normal ops had good intentions.  It's always nice to get pushed off of the normal side of things.  Like tonight, I flew back from LGA, and it was my intention to hit PARKE and ride the HYPER4 back to IAD.  Weather came in faster than I'd expected, so I had to head south and approach the Washington Area from the east (instead of the north east), and jump onto the BARIN1 at BARIN.

 

http://vataware.com/flight.cfm?id=12060003

 

It was nice to break the mold.

 

 

 

I know you don't care for VA's much, but for me, it gives a certain feel of purpose and a sense of accomplishment for my flights.

 

For sure.  I was huge into Scandinavian VA when I was in college.  They were pretty good about things (not overly obsessed with simism-fed rules), and they had some cool routes around Norway.  In the end, I just got tired of it and felt like being able to fly what I want, when I want, with whatever colors on the outside that I felt like.

[hopskip 253]

scandinavian13, on 23 Jul 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

 

...and this is why VAs bother me.

 

First, bank angle doesn't affect passengers(/living cargo) because of the way the forces of flight work (in normal flight conditions.) The whole entire way an aircraft is allowed to turn is through lift translating from a wholly vertical to a partially lateral force. The end result is - if you made a completely coordinated turn at a relatively slow roll rate with no windows - people wouldn't even know you're turning because the force is down through the floor. Even if you made the g argument that higher bank turns induce more gs, a 30 degree turn gets you about 1.15 g, which is hardly noticeable (and polo ponies would hardly care, given their normal physical routine.)

 

Second, vertical speed would only matter for the pressurization trying to keep up with your changing altitude. Even then, with a pressurized main deck, the cabin pressure is going to come up anyway.

 

I mean...interesting take on trying to simulate non-normal operations, but kinda misguided.

 

Sorry...rant over...

Carry on :blink:

Someone needs to perma-link that video of Bob Hoover pouring tea from a teapot into a cup while simultaneously flying several barrel rolls in both directions without spilling a drop to any Virtual Airline CEO.

 

Bank angle does not make things 'fall left or right'. Un-coordinated flight does that.

 

In a sideslip with a 0° angle of bank, stuff gets shoved left and right by G.

In coordinated 1G flight, you can do barrel rolls all day and if you had a blindfold on (and a real good pilot) you wouldn't even know when you were upside down. Heck I reccon if you asked someone to push a button "when they felt they weren't level anymore" they'd probably go through a few barrel rolls without reacting, then press it once it rolled out to level flight again (detecting the G when the spin stops).

 

 

[Vagabondo 23]

I've never really felt any need of it, have you? What are the real life routines with this?

Not that many. In normal ops it is set to 25 by default. I use it for 15 or 10 degrees occasionally at cruise when navigating around thunderstorms - just in case we run into turbulence when reasonably close to the amber bars and also because wide turns are generally a better fit with navigating to an offset.

 

All non standard engine out take off procedures require a 15 degree angle of bank to ensure maximum climb gradients in a turn. Our SOP is that all EOPs (standard and non-standard) are to be flown 15 degree. There is no SOP for the use of the bank angle selector but some choose to set it before takeoff and some leave it to when it is required - which is practically speaking, outside of a simulator training, never so far.

[Spin737 102]

Not that many. In normal ops it is set to 25 by default. I use it for 15 or 10 degrees occasionally at cruise when navigating around thunderstorms - just in case we run into turbulence when reasonably close to the amber bars and also because wide turns are generally a better fit with navigating to an offset.

 

All non standard engine out take off procedures require a 15 degree angle of bank to ensure maximum climb gradients in a turn. Our SOP is that all EOPs (standard and non-standard) are to be flown 15 degree. There is no SOP for the use of the bank angle selector but some choose to set it before takeoff and some leave it to when it is required - which is practically speaking, outside of a simulator training, never so far.

Alaska Airlines has the Fox departure out of Juneau where you are 30deg bank on one or two engines. Turn radius is the issue there unless you can go vertical.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Spin737

[E6BAV8R 88]

The only time I've ever used the bank angle limiter is during single-engine operations (real world).

[scandinavian13 5,192]

We've got the Fox departure out of Juneau where you are 30deg bank on one or two engines. Turn radius is the issue there unless you can go vertical.

 

Of course, I missed the "we've" and went to AirNav to check it out...haha.  Oh well.

 

From the CINGA3's vivid description of the RWY 8 procedure, I can infer from there.

[Spin737 102]

Of course, I missed the "we've" and went to AirNav to check it out...haha.  Oh well.

 

From the CINGA3's vivid description of the RWY 8 procedure, I can infer from there.

Yeah, it's not even a custom Jepp plate. It's only on our AS airport info sheets. We have to do it in the sim every year to keep current.

 

Pop the nose up to 20, roll over to 30 and don't hit the mountain. If the engine quits, drop the nose to 10.

[Jack C 8]

...and this is why VAs bother me.

 

First, bank angle doesn't affect passengers(/living cargo) because of the way the forces of flight work (in normal flight conditions.)  The whole entire way an aircraft is allowed to turn is through lift translating from a wholly vertical to a partially lateral force.  The end result is - if you made a completely coordinated turn at a relatively slow roll rate with no windows - people wouldn't even know you're turning because the force is down through the floor.  Even if you made the g argument that higher bank turns induce more gs, a 30 degree turn gets you about 1.15 g, which is hardly noticeable (and polo ponies would hardly care, given their normal physical routine.)

 

Second, vertical speed would only matter for the pressurization trying to keep up with your changing altitude.  Even then, with a pressurized main deck, the cabin pressure is going to come up anyway.

 

I mean...interesting take on trying to simulate non-normal operations, but kinda misguided.

 

Sorry...rant over...

Carry on  :blink:

Try telling that to a passenger in a 45 degree bank! you will feel it. Why you would be doing a 45 bank is beyond me. 2 reasons for the bank limiter. 1, in an engine failure and speed is below white carat on speed tape (say on take off) you are limited to 15 degrees of bank. Secondly, if ATC says "for traffic turn left 15 degrees, since it is a relatively small turn, why bank the aircraft 25 degrees when a 5-10 bank will do fine.