I'm gonna do a quick run on 98% and see if we similar results, that should give us some idea of how valid the numbers are...

Mas

EDIT: Ok - I might just have done something really, really stupid!!!

 

Looking at my gross weight in the FMC and in the loadsheet, I notice they are different... So this is the way you should set up:

 

The loadsheetnumbers affect the aircraft weight, but to get the correct gross eight readout from the FMC, remember to add the Full wt. number to the "payload" entry in the FMC, that way you'll get the same numbers... I'm afraid all the 17000 lbs and 19000 lbs runs i've done have had this mistake in, so tey have to be re-done - UNBELEIVABLE!!!! So sorry guys...

 

Mas

Pheeew!!! I was able to backtrack my weight problems, and it seems that when I did my 17000 lbs run and my 19000 lbs run, I was always 4000 lbs heavier than I thougt - so I just bumped those numbers up to 21000 lbs sheet and 23000 lbs sheet ;)

 

So be shure to get the payload figures from the loadsheet into the payload entry in the FMC, and cross check the gross weight number from the FSX Aircraft menu, and the FMC gross weight read out!!

 

Happy flying - I'm courious to see of we get more similar numbers on the 15000 lbs run...

 

Mas

Kyle,  can you let us know,  if you want a ISA=- 5 run done? This wasn't in your initial instructions, but we just want to make sure it was not a typo.  Also,  do you require a descent run on each condition,  or will a descent run on 100% at ISA=0 be sufficient? 

 

Thx

 

Mas

 

 

Kyle, can you let us know, if you want a ISA=- 5 run done? This wasn't in your initial instructions, but we just want to make sure it was not a typo. Also, do you require a descent run on each condition, or will a descent run on 100% at ISA=0 be sufficient?

 

Hey - sorry - I've had a lot going on.  Saw your PM and totally forgot about it.

 

I don't think either of those will be necessary.  Thanks for checking.

No problem - we're definitely getting somewhere John and I, shouldn't be too long.

 

BUT - you mention cruise runs also, can you give more specific instructions for those?

 

Mas

Cruise runs, in my understanding are just brief runs at various altitudes and ISAs.

 

Basically, the way I've been doing them is to:

• Set up the weather
• Get the plane up in the air, in a cruise state, at the first altitude to test (98%, and a cruise speed relative to the position of the red line)
• Set the AP
• Set the weight
• Note the fuel flow
• Reset the weight to the earlier value (by adjusting the fuel back to the previous value)
• Note the fuel flow
• Verify both are close (they should be - if not, repeat to see which one was closer to the third run)
• Repeat with differing weights for same altitude
• Next altitude

They're a lot less time consuming than climb runs, but there are more of them.

Ok, a couple of questions:

1. Speed relative to the red line? What does that mean? Should we cruise at a fixed KIAS, or at a KIAS fixed below the Vmo, eg 10 kts below Vmo?

 

2. When you say to set the weight back to previous value, is it simply to verify the first set of data, so or am I misunderstanding?

 

3. When changing weights, I assume it takes some (relatively) time to get stabilized at the correct speed (see #1), and this is when we note the FF - correct?

 

4. Different ISA and altitudes - the same as the ones we've been testing so far? I could simply ad a column in the xisting spreadsheet.

 

Thx again

 

Mas

 

 

1. Speed relative to the red line? What does that mean? Should we cruise at a fixed KIAS, or at a KIAS fixed below the Vmo, eg 10 kts below Vmo?

 

Exactly as it sounds - maintain a speed relative to the red line.  I can't find any data on cruise speeds (else, I'd probably have this profile done already because it would have expected burn values for weights and so on), so I just maintain a speed that's off the red line in a relative sense.  I know on larger aircraft, the red line moves based on weight, altitude and a few other conditions.  I haven't ever paid attention if any of those factors change it on the PFD for the JS4100, but I didn't want to say "cruise at this speed exactly" if red line speed changes.

 

For what it's worth, I usually keep it somewhere around 235-240.

 

 

 

2. When you say to set the weight back to previous value, is it simply to verify the first set of data, so or am I misunderstanding?

 

Correct.

 

 

 

3. When changing weights, I assume it takes some (relatively) time to get stabilized at the correct speed (see #1), and this is when we note the FF - correct?

 

Correct.

 

4. Different ISA and altitudes - the same as the ones we've been testing so far? I could simply ad a column in the xisting spreadsheet.

 

All the values are up to the data provider, really.  As in, the program will look to the data and try to find the best match with the given conditions.  If only one set of data were available for max weight and 0 ISA, it would use that, though it might not be as accurate.

 

I ran the HOLD values from 1500 all the way up to 25000 with all of the weight segments, though I think I only did it at ISA.  My thought is that we could run cruise values from 5000 through 25000 (it gives us a nice round 20 altitudes, and I haven't found too many JS4100 routes necessitating cruise values at 3000 and 4000.  Even if you had them, the legs would be so short that you'd be primarily worried about the climb calculation, and the cruise would be close enough.)

 

Thanks for the help!

For what it's worth, I usually keep it somewhere around 235-240.

We'll do that as well!

 

 

 

All the values are up to the data provider, really. As in, the program will look to the data and try to find the best match with the given conditions. If only one set of data were available for max weight and 0 ISA, it would use that, though it might not be as accurate.

 

 

 

I ran the HOLD values from 1500 all the way up to 25000 with all of the weight segments, though I think I only did it at ISA. My thought is that we could run cruise values from 5000 through 25000 (it gives us a nice round 20 altitudes, and I haven't found too many JS4100 routes necessitating cruise values at 3000 and 4000. Even if you had them, the legs would be so short that you'd be primarily worried about the climb calculation, and the cruise would be close enough.)

 

5000-25000' sounds great, but would you figure we could go at ISA, or should we also do some deviations? I'm not sure what impact the ISA will do on FF when cruising - and to my excuse it is kinda late here, and I'm climbing away for only God knows which time;)

 

Mas

 

 

5000-25000' sounds great, but would you figure we could go at ISA, or should we also do some deviations? I'm not sure what impact the ISA will do on FF when cruising - and to my excuse it is kinda late here, and I'm climbing away for only God knows which time;)

 

ISA significantly affects cruise performance.  If we only had one chance to include ISA, this would be it.

 

...so, yes - run all the ISA DEVs possible.

Rgr that - I've added a column in the spreadsheet for FF at 235-240 KIAS @ 98% (no 100% correct?), with the ISAs we're currently running climbs at.

 

We could add the ISA -5 to the cruise numbers to get it more precise, but don't wanna go overboard if not needed?

 

Progress: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuwEGRHd1E2jdGZoYzc1QndoVFlNSXVMbVNFY3dDM3c&usp=drive_web#gid=2

 

Mas

More data is generally always better.  It really just comes down to: how much work is everyone willing to do to make it more accurate?

 

Might as well run 100% if someone wants to do it.

Ok - get the picture. I think John and I will do the climbs and most likely the cruises at 98% also, and then we'll regroup and take a "moral/motivation" temperature read-out

 

Mas

Ok guys! Great news - John and I have finished the data collection for climb and descent profiles on all weights, ISAs and conditions - the spreadsheet with data is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuwEGRHd1E2jdGZoYzc1QndoVFlNSXVMbVNFY3dDM3c&usp=docslist_api#gid=4 .

 

@ Kyle :

1. Is there anything else you need regarding climb/descent to proceed, let us know.

2. Will the format used on the cruise sheet be usable (see link below)? Let us know.

 

We have setup to commence the cruise runs, and will post further progress here. Again, anyone can contribute, as the cruise spreadsheet can be editet by any one, so don't hold back!

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuwEGRHd1E2jdHNySFdoY1N5bm1EMnhQTVpQQV82c1E#gid=0

 

Mas

Looks good to me so far!  I'll start putting the data together tomorrow while people work on the cruise stuff.

 

Just let me know what the numbers represent.  I'm sure I could probably figure it out, but just in case...

FuelFlow/Knots?