Not understanding the new(er) cloud shader options

[flyinion 280]

First, the options in the dialogue don't actually match what is talked about in the manual (v1.2 build 29).  The actual box has "disable MSAA", "Cloud Clip", "Cloud Cull".  The manual has the MSAA one but then lists "Cloud Trim" and then "Cloud Cull".  To make it more confusing the screenshot in the manual also shows the same as what I actually have when running the app though.  Basically I'm trying to figure out what the correct settings should be for a lower end (i7-860 cpu & GTX560 Ti GPU) running SGSS transparency AA.  Previously the cloud shader only had "disable MSAA" and the description only talked about disabling MSAA on the clouds so I always just left the shader disabled.  Now it talks about SS and Smart Grid AA but it's confusing on the wording as to whether to leave it on or off in my situation.

[SteveFx 258]

Charles, yes you are correct - the wording in the manual should say Cloud Clip not Cloud Trim. I changed the wording of the option before I released 1.2 but must have missed that reference in the manual. Thanks for pointing it out - I will update in the next build.

 

 

The MSAA option will have no impact positive or negative on you since you use SGAA, I tend to leave it set on, but equally it would make perfect sense for you to untick it (as it does nothing).

 

Cloud Clip should give you a performance boost in heavy clouds - e.g on Word Not Allowed's cloud test it gives me a 20%+ increase in fps. I would suggest leaving this set on.

 

Cloud Cull reduces slightly the complexity of clouds that are more than 10 miles away. In your situation I would tick this and see how it goes.

[flyinion 280]

Charles, yes you are correct - the wording in the manual should say Cloud Clip not Cloud Trim. I changed the wording of the option before I released 1.2 but must have missed that reference in the manual. Thanks for pointing it out - I will update in the next build.

 

 

The MSAA option will have no impact positive or negative on you since you use SGAA, I tend to leave it set on, but equally it would make perfect sense for you to untick it (as it does nothing).

 

Cloud Clip should give you a performance boost in heavy clouds - e.g on Word Not Allowed's cloud test it gives me a 20%+ increase in fps. I would suggest leaving this set on.

 

Cloud Cull reduces slightly the complexity of clouds that are more than 10 miles away. In your situation I would tick this and see how it goes.

 

 

Awesome, thanks so much Steve.  I will turn both of the last two options on.  I could use all the help I can get with FPS and processing load when I'm using the PMDG 737 on my system lol.  

[SteveFx 258]

Another area to look at is effects. If you disable dx10 compatible lights and then select from the options menu to only convert simple effects , then enable dx10 compatible lights, it may save some fps on smoke effects.

[flyinion 280]

Another area to look at is effects. If you disable dx10 compatible lights and then select from the options menu to only convert simple effects , then enable dx10 compatible lights, it may save some fps on smoke effects.

 

My problems with the PMDG were never actually fps issues but processing power.  I'd be getting 25-30fps or so but smeared blurry ground textures.  Locking internally and really reducing autogen and some other stuff a bit dialed it in to be able to maintain 25fps internally locked.  All that was without any clouds or any noticeable smoke effects going on.  I thought it was going to be a temporary situation and that I was going to be doing a massive computer upgrade a month or two ago, but then life happened lol so I have to live with it for a bit longer.

[Paul J 349]

What is your Fiber_Frame_Time_Fraction set to, Charles?

[flyinion 280]

What is your Fiber_Frame_Time_Fraction set to, Charles?

 

I haven't set a value for it.  So I assume it's at the FSX default of .33.  I figured since I already get blurred ground textures with the PMDG any time I turn off the internal locking it's definitely not going to do me any good to lower it, I don't really want to raise it either though and drop my fps.  I also found out I can get the blurring to happen with default aircraft.  I was doing a flight in the default 747 from Iceland to Cuba and when I got back over land with a good bit of clouds showing up (before the newer Fixer with the new cloud options) at 4x sim speed I was getting a blurry mess lol.  That was at my "normal" settings though which uses 1/2 refresh rate vsync to lock at 30fps in NI.  I put FSX back to my PMDG settings which are locked internally and it went away.

[Paul J 349]

Well - these are your killers, so I would reduce any or all of them and do some testing. You shouldn't be getting blurring ground textures at 3.7 gig unless something's way out of whack. I and many others - probably you, too ran the Core2Duo at 3.4 gig, and didn't get blurring until I pushed the FFTF down to .22 over Seattle. Nowadays I can run it at .05 without blurring.

[flyinion 280]

Well - these are your killers, so I would reduce any or all of them and do some testing. You shouldn't be getting blurring ground textures at 3.7 gig unless something's way out of whack. I and many others - probably you, too ran the Core2Duo at 3.4 gig, and didn't get blurring until I pushed the FFTF down to .22 over Seattle. Nowadays I can run it at .05 without blurring.

 

 

I'm actually really close to having those settings for the most part in my PMDG setup actually.  The only big difference is LOD is set to 3.5 (normally I run 6.5 on my non-PMDG settings) and water is set to 5 not 4 (forgot about that) and I might set that back to 4 now that I went from the default Fixer water shader to FSWC Lite's DX10 one.  I also have autogen on sparse and scenery complexity on normal whatever numbers those work out to when using the PMDG.  All others I use extremely dense complexity and normal AG.  I do have traffic turned very low when using the PMDG, and around 25% otherwise (probably what killed me at 4x with the default AC).

 

I think the main thing killing me is running REX (1024 textures) + FTX Global.  I suspect the Global textures put that "final straw" on my system.  I've had them since before I got the PMDG 737 though so I don't have a point of reference from before that.  If it is the increased texture though, then I'm sure the better video card with a lot more RAM on it will definitely help especially with bufferpools 0.

[Paul J 349]

Yeah - the 560 Ti is pretty low-end card, Charles, especially with only a gig of ram, and SGSS at 4x is certainly hard - even with better GPU's.

 

pj

[Mephic 129]

SGSS 4x with Rex clouds is horrible especially with ASN and enhanced overcast.

 

My 660ti almost dies (15 FPS). Other settings in my case doesn't matter. Wish there was an option to disable sgsaa on clouds.

[theskyisthelimit 48]

Awesome, thanks so much Steve.  I will turn both of the last two options on.  I could use all the help I can get with FPS and processing load when I'm using the PMDG 737 on my system lol.  

 

I tried out checking off cull.. in my case my average fps for a test run i have increased by about 1.5 fps.. but i have a pretty maxed out system already.. though it suffers in heavy airports with lots of clouds (18-21 fps near the airport/city with full on clouds).. EG: ksea, san fran etc.. otherwise i hold close to 29-35 fps with fsx internally at 36 (144 hz)

 

This setting probably does a lot of good for many though.

[flyinion 280]

Yeah - the 560 Ti is pretty low-end card, Charles, especially with only a gig of ram, and SGSS at 4x is certainly hard - even with better GPU's.

 

pj

 

Hi Paul, I know we're getting slightly OT here, but since I just re-did a bunch of testing after updating to the newest Fixer (so now we're sorta back on topic lol) and new video drivers I went through testing that PMDG around ORBX PNW again.  I think I've come to a conclusion.  While my 560 Ti definitely is a lower end card, I think my bigger problem when trying to use the PMDG product is my CPU.  I never saw above 40% GPU usage now that I'm on DX10 even with SGSS 4x around KSEA (note that this is with NO weather).  What I did see is all cpu cores affected by my affinity mask completely pegged at 100% while using the PMDG.  

 

I went back and looked through an old thread I had about this situation on ORBX's forums and was reminded that the only two sliders that really ever had a noticeable effect in this situation was scenery complexity and autogen and I really can't lower those anymore than they already are.  AG is on sparse and scenery is on normal and lowering that to sparse just gets rid of too many buildings.  KSEA for example loses all but its satellite terminals.  

 

I ran through your updated setup guide and tried various bufferpool settings including bufferpools = 0.  I noticed a new behavior under DX10.  Bufferpools = 0 in DX9 would cause my GPU usage to shoot to 99% and I'd get all kinds of artifacts (note that I was externally locked but I think did NOT have vsync on last time I tried that).  Now under DX10 I don't get the high usage, but there was no performance improvement and I actually was getting flashing black squares of scenery.  Also I'm not sure where you got your affinity mask settings for quad core with HT.  Both 252 and 254 caused a 30% loss of FPS and massive stuttering for the PMDG at KSEA.  I went from a "nice" 12-13fps at the end of the runway with my normal mask number to 8.  It would eventually increase to a "normal" amount but stuttered like crazy.  A mask of 84 which is what I see recommended all the time for quad core cpu's with HT seems to work the best.  

 

Anyway I guess the point of all this is that I think I've confirmed that I really need a new GPU for all these new high end textures that have come out since I built my rig in 2010 and a new CPU to handle intensive planes like the PMDG.  Also to get us totally back on topic, I've been running all the new cloud options and I think it's definitely improved the smoothness of the sim when in heavy cloud situations  :lol:

[Paul J 349]

:lol:

 

It's a lot of work, isn't it! There are hundreds of pieces to this FSX puzzle!

 

"  I noticed a new behavior under DX10.  Bufferpools = 0 in DX9 would cause my GPU usage to shoot to 99% and I'd get all kinds of artifacts (note that I was externally locked but I think did NOT have vsync on last time I tried that).  Now under DX10 I don't get the high usage, but there was no performance improvement and I actually was getting flashing black squares of scenery."

 

Yes - DX10 does all of the graphics work, and with different,and improved code than DX9 does. The performance increase that you anticipated - that didn't come, depends upon what you're expecting. DX10 can carry a heavier graphics load, and of course - that can be interpreted in many ways: some folks like lots of cars on the roads: some like lots of GA and only fly VFR: others - perhaps like yourself - are looking for the PMDG at 4096, lots of cloud, and sophisticated airports, but little in the way of scenery, trees, cars, etc.. - and each of these need to be treated differently.  Much of the "tweaking" in DX9 is guesswork, but in DX10 we've had the advantage of Steve's outstanding work, and his blog site, which is full of technical fact. This prompts people like Charles (and others - mainy techies) including me, to get down deep in how FSX works, and specifically what each particular command or function does in DX10. When you know this - "tweaking" ceases to exist: it becomes a case of setting the correct parameter according to the user's equipment, his/her setup, the OS, and the rest of the software being used, making the whole process much more predictable.

It all comes together, though, when you have a brute of a processor combined with a brute of a GPU, and you''ll see this when you do eventually upgrade the pc. My best advice is the same as Nick's - don't buy second or third level components for FSX - ONLY buy top-level: buying lower-grade will put you into the continuous search for performance that never ends. it will also last you longer before the "need to upgrade" comes around again.  This is not too likely to happen, given the physical limitations of the processors on the market today.

 

/ 4 Core No HT off - 14 3 Main threads 1 worker
// 4 Core No HT off - 12 2 Main threads 2 workers
// 4 Core With HT on - 254 3 Main threads 1 worker
// 4 Core With HT on - 252 2 Main threads 2 workers

 

Anyway - I'm glad you're on top of your pc - now you can just fly! and enjoy!

 

All the Best,

 

pj

[flyinion 280]

LOL I actually gave up on 4096 textures a while back.  1024 is perfectly usable for now.  Sure I'd love to do 2048 or 4096 but until I upgrade my PC the 1024's look just fine.  I wish I knew a good reference for which sliders were more GPU and which were more CPU affected though.  I had run across a website a couple years ago that actually had that but I failed to bookmark it and can't find it again.