I'm descending into Las Vegas airport (KLAS) on LNAV and VNAV.

FMA: Arm | LNAV | VNAV PTH

Passing through 9500 feet

Speed: 230

Alt window: 7000

My active way point is Boulder VOR and the legs page shows: BLD 180/5618.

I set a hard speed of 180 on the Legs page but the speed tape shows 240 (at the top of the airspeed) and it isn't slowing down as I thought it would.

 

If the Legs page shows a speed of 180 why is 240 still showing at the top of the speed tape?

 

(I have a screen shot of this but I don't see how to attach?)

 

Yep I can't attach either, dunno why.

 

Perhaps the airplane doesn't think it is time to slow down yet? You should see a green ball with DECEL on the ND.

Yes I do see the Green ball with DECEL on the ND...

Yeah, I guess I was jumping the gun...the speed came down nicely once reaching the DECEL green ball...thanks again...

Yeah, I guess I was jumping the gun...the speed came down nicely once reaching the DECEL green ball...thanks again...

 

First, I have to say that I'm not trying to be at all rude in stating this, but you seem to be having an abnormal amount of issues for someone with the experience that you've stated.

 

I know I've asked this before, and I think you said you have, but a lot of these issues should be clearly sorted if you've flown the tutorials, so have you really flown them and paid attention to them?

Yes...I've flown the tutorials before...Kyle, I think the problems I am having are of not remembering things well...I am retired and find that I'm not remembering things as well as I use to...as that other thread points out regarding the learning curve of the 737NGX, there is a lot going on when flying the 737NGX...thanks for your tact...you're very patient and polite...!!!

 

As a side note regarding the tutorials, if I were writing them, I would have started out with a much more basic tutorial #1 and would have created at least 4 of them (maybe more)...you have to use a "building block" teaching process for jetliners...they are complex and the only way to successfully teach something like a 737NGX or 777 or 747-400 is to use a building block structure...it's what Boeing uses and the airlines...while there is no doubt PMDG created an absolutely stunning 737NGX, their tutorials fall far short in my opinion...they were after thoughts and not well thought out for newbies...Kyle, from what you've stated with your work in PHX and those sophisticated level D sims, I think you know this too...in fact, you sound like an instructor.

 

To be clear, I'm not blaming the tutorials for my steep learning curve...I'm just having a hard time learning...yesterday I spent a solid 6 hours flying ILS approaches and plan to do the same again today.

Kyle, from what you've stated with your work in PHX and those sophisticated level D sims, I think you know this too...in fact, you sound like an instructor.

 

They were only FTD Level 6s, just for accuracy's sake  :wink:

 

I definitely know (as an instructor not of the CFI variety) that some people have their own challenges to learning, so I was just trying to feel out where you were in your learning process.  I've had students simply go through the motions and not learn anything from the basic lessons, and I've had others similarly learn nothing from the basic lessons, but more because they just needed more explanations on things.

 

While I don't necessarily agree on the tutorials part (have to aim them at the core audience, which with a study sim like this is generally people with enough experience where tutorials so basic would be ignored), that doesn't necessarily mean that some wouldn't find that helpful.  In that case, that's why we have the forum.

 

Now that I know where you're coming from, I know to be more patient.  It's those who simply refuse to help themselves (by ignoring the tutorials and coming here essentially for "private lessons" of sorts) that I tend to get huffy with.  Thus the questions...

 

Thanks for your patience in answering them.  Many people would not have responded so politely.

EDIT:

 

 

 

they are complex and the only way to successfully teach something like a 737NGX or 777 or 747-400 is to use a building block structure...

 

For what it's worth (even though it's a different aircraft), PMDG's site has a few lessons on the 747 that might be along the lines you're looking for.  Despite being for a different aircraft, I'm sure there's some information that you could carry over from it (particularly the later lessons, where they go into approaches).

@rfresh737

 

Lovely well-thought of reply to Kyle. Like you, my brain cells too sometimes fail to retain what I learned in the Tutorials. Guess that's the byproduct of getting old and wizened.

 

Nevertheless, credit to both you and Kyle for the way this post was handled.

@vc10man thank you...nice to hear.

 

>They were only FTD Level 6s

Kyle - Ahhh yes...I have much time instructing in those...on the MD-90 for McDonnell Douglas in Long Beach, Calif before Boeing bought them out and I got moved over to the B-717 to teach...Level 6 FTD's have full functionality except for the motion and visual...and as for learning a given plane using them, they are exactly the same as a full flight simulator...(you don't need the visual or motion to learn a system or procedure)...so yes, very nice training devices Kyle...

 

 

Level 6 FTD's have full functionality except for the motion and visual

 

Close.  No motion.  Visuals are present.  Without visuals, you're thinking of a procedures trainer (CPT).

A little more background for Kyle (and anyone else who finds this interesting from a teaching/learning perspective).

 

When I worked for the major airline instructing in the sims, there wasn't very many problems with the students (they're line pilots), at least for me because I wasn't teaching the entry level (new hire pilot) jet: the 737. Boy, how I wish I had now lol. Anyway, I was teaching their other jets, the wide body L-1011 and, briefly, the DC-10/MD-11. And yes you can guess my favorite was the TriStar from my picture.

 

Anyway,  when I was teaching for the manufacturers (McDonnell Douglas and Boeing) it was a very different teaching experience. With them, airlines from all over the world sent their crews to get "Factory Training". We had a 6 to 9 month back log of training in the pipe line at all times. The problem was, many of these airlines were small and they were young as an airline, so when they hired their pilots, many did not have enough jet time for the course and in some cases, no jet time. The MD-90 course was written for an experienced line pilot, with a few thousand hours of jet time. Obviously, it was an FAA approved course, taking 5 weeks to complete: ground school and 24 full flight sim training sessions. No actual airplane flying needed.

 

To get through the course, you would need to put in 12 hours days, 6 days a week...with Sunday off to rest your brain. I would tell my students do not study on Sundays...you need a break, a rest from it.

 

Because the course was written for an experienced line pilot, we didn't teach the basics or the theory of systems...there was absolutely no time for it...thus, we didn't teach how a jet engine works, what a compressor stall and flame out was, we didn't teach them what a Flight Director was and how to use it, or what an outflow valve was and what part it plays in the pressurization system. They were expected to know things like that already.

 

One day I got a crew in from a foreign country...they just bought 5 new MD-90's and sent us 10 crews to teach. And BTW, the price to train one crew on the MD-90 was $48,000.00. When I start a new crew I always ask them what their background is and their jet time. The co-pilot told me he had only 200 hours in the B-737-200. And the rest of his time was in a twin-engine Baron. I thought to myself, oh boy, this is going to be a rough 5 weeks. The Captain was OK and had a lot of experience and jet time.

 

The first sim session wasn't too bad because it was just a cockpit familiarization session...learn where all the lighting controls were, the general layout, etc. No starting engines. Just doing the cockpit safety check procedure.

 

The second sim session we did an engine start and just the initial take off then stop the sim and repeat. As soon as the co-pilot did his first take off I knew he had never flown a jet before. I knew he didn't have 200 hours in the right seat of the 737-200. How did I know? No matter what jet you fly, being a jet there are some things that are common to all jets. So it doesn't matter if you've never flown a B-777 before, if you've flown a 737NGX, that will show in your 777 training.

 

So what exactly did this co-pilot do on his take off to give it away?

 

1. When he pushed the throttles up to take off power he ran them straight up to pull power in one motion. He didn't "stand them up" to let them spool first before pushing them to TO power. So hint one here was that he didn't know how jet engines work.

 

2. Once power was set, he didn't keep his hand on the throttles in case of an abort. We weren't going to do any aborts in sim #2 but you all know you keep your hand on the throttles until reaching V1. He obviously did not.

 

And so it went for the next 22 sim sessions. He was so far in over his head it wasn't funny. I had him for the first 12 sim sessions and except for #1 I failed him in the next 11 sessions. Another instructor took over and failed him for the last 12 sessions. I talked to my boss and told him how poorly he was doing and he told me to just document the training well in case the accident investigation board ever comes around in the future to collect his training records.

 

This crew was not getting an FAA check ride. They were just paying to get "Factory Training" and then going home, regardless of how good or bad they did. In fact, the completion diploma states "John Smith has successfully completed the MD-90 Initial Training course" and my boss told me to remove the word 'successfully' from his diploma, so I did.

 

Obviously, all through his training I wondered how on earth did he get the job as F/O on this jetliner with no jet time? It was around sim session 6 or 7 that I finally told him, you don't have 200 hours in the right seat of the 737-200 as you claim...if you have 200 hours at all, it's in the jump seat (and I even questioned that)...when I looked at the Captain he looked away from me, so I knew he knew the answer but he wasn't talking. It was only after his training was over that I found out the answer.

 

After the 10 crews finished their training, we sent several instructors with them back to their country to fly with them for 30 days. One of our pilots (John Spencer) returned and came into my office to ask me about this co-pilot. John said, Ralph, you trained so and so didn't you? I said oh, yeah, that guy, yes I trained him. Why do you ask? John said on a charter trip with John in the left seat and this F/O in the right, the F/O was flying in IMC and lost control of the jet with 92 passengers in the back. John had to take over and get the plane back to straight and level in the clouds. I told John I always wondered how this guy got hired and John looked at me and said you don't know? I just shook my head, no. John said: His father owns the company.

 

100% true story.

 

 

Close.  No motion.  Visuals are present.  Without visuals, you're thinking of a procedures trainer (CPT).

 

I guess different companies use different terms for their training devices. At Lockheed and McDonnell Douglas their CPT's were just open cockpits with paper panel posters. Absolutely no systems functionality. Those were just to teach cockpit checklist flows.

 

Then the crews moved on to what we called the FTD (Flight Training Devices) which had full systems functionality but no visual and no motion. (To be completely accurate, the Lockheed FTD's had full, actual panels but limited systems functionality while the McDonnell FTD's had full systems functionality).

 

Interesting stuff...!!!

 

 

It was around sim session 6 or 7 that I finally told him, you don't have 200 hours in the right seat of the 737-200 as you claim...if you have 200 hours at all, it's in the jump seat (and I even questioned that)...

 

haha - sounds like a line I would use.

This exchanges of RW technical experiences between you two, has been one of the most refreshing posts to read and glean from, of late. So informative. Nice work, guys.

Scandinavian13 The Wikipedian in residence of this forum must be 110 years old, His knowledge is boundless

 

Bart William