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ryanbatcund

GPS Ry 2 at KWVI missing waypoints

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Hi Ryan,

can´t reproduce it ... I have seleted the RNAV02 with SNS transition as example - the result, is correct so far ...

KWVI_R02.JPG

 

Cheers,

Richard

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Try selecting one of the three IAF's: LEPWU, IFAFY, or RISPE

 

These don't even show up in my list.

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Sorry Ryan, possible a stupid newbie question, but what do you mean with "select one of the ..."?

Do you mean during a flight as a "direct to" or what do you mean with this ... because after selecting the GPS approach with a transition, I get the complete list of waypoitns ... so i can´t see any problems with the data because they are there.

 

kwvi_02_page1.JPG

 

kwvi_02_page2.JPG

 

kwvi_02_page3.JPG

 

Cheers,

Richard

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Another question that may help, did you update the nav data for the X-plane 430 as well as just x-plane.  They are different downloads.

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Greetings Again,

 

So tonight I went and played with this and also noticed issues with the GPS file and the general x-plane nav files.  On my iMac I am using the 10.30 beta 2 in a second folder from version 10.25. I had pointed the Navigraph FMS Data Manager to the 10.30 folder. I thought it was updating this folder which it seems to say it is (noting the beta).  However, the data in the 10.30 beta folder was staying as cycle 1405.   For fun, I opened my 10.25 folder and there was all the data for cycle 1406.  So, I think there may be an issue with the installer not playing nice with more than one version of x-plane sitting on the computer or on the desktop in my case. Took me some playing, but I got the files to install and it worked 100%. I can go direct to RISPE.  However, if selecting the approach you are only given the start of the approach as an option, but all the points you need will appear.

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Didn't know there was a GPS430 beta.... as it did not come up in my FMS manager with a scan....

 

Can I get in touch with navigraph and download just this without affecting my credits?

 

This is what I show in my FMS manager.... some of these I had to manually add.

XPfmsnavi.jpg

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Personally, I don't use the FMS data manager as it's not very intuitive to use on Mac. 

Here's what you can do:

Download the navdata for FlightFactor 757/777 in "native" format from the navigraph website. Unzip it and find the folder that contains the Airports.txt. Navaids.txt etc...

Copy that stuff into X-Plane/Resources/GNS430/navdata/ overwriting the Airports.txt, Navaids.txt, etc.. already there. Done. 

 

To bail out and go back to what is shipped with X-Plane, run the X-Plane updater, and when it asks to overwrite a file that you modified, say "Yes to all".

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Oh it's the same, ok thanks.  I actually happened to download THAT 757 data (thinking I might get it some time) with my FMS manager.

 

I'll do that appreciate it!

 

p.s.  I don't really like the manager either after I realized what you download is some file that's not a zip and just a bunch of letters and numbers until it extracts into your install folder.  I think I'll go manual download next time - easier to back up imho.

 

EDIT:  Shoot, that did not work.

 

Richard, I'm trying to think how to more clearly explain the issue.

 

Here's the IAP.  In the GPS I DirectTo KWVI.  I press PROC.  I select RNAV Ry 2 approach.  What pops up is in my first post.... only VECTORS, SNS and SANTY.  What should popup is VECTORS, LEPWU, IFAFY, and RISPE, and also the trans SNS and SANTY.

 

Example.  I'm flying along approaching KWVI from the west.  I want to shoot The rnav 2 approach today for practice.  I'd like to start the approach at LEPWU.  I can't do it unless I select SANTY, ENT, then DTO, then LEPWU.  That's a long work around.  The IAF (Initial Approach Fix's) need to be in list.

 

KWVIGPS2.jpg

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Hi Ryan,

ok, now I have checked what you mean ... Sorry, I need a little bit more time - I guess, it´s my age :huh:

 

LEPWU and RISPE are only IAFs which can be ONLY reached via a SANTY or SNS. There is no airway connection to LEPWI or RISPE and therefore you have no possibility to select it in an FMC nor in the GPS here. IFAFY is the IF and also not connected directly via an airway.

 

A transition is defined as a connection between an airway to the IAF (or IF). In this case, you have two approach transitions - one from SANTY and one from the SNS VOR.

 

The procedure is correct, the data are correct an the GNS works as it should.

Sorry, but I can´t see any issue here ...

Cheers,

Richard

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That's wrong though my friend...  These need to be able to be selected in that list.  If you're flying this approach it doesn't matter if they come off an airway etc, an aircraft flying this approach needs some sort of GPS, and an aircraft flying airways only or VOR to VOR would be /A transponder with DME only.

 

The point is an aircraft with GPS equipment needs to be able to go direct one of those IAF's from ANYWHERE.  

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Ryan is absolutely correct (edit: except for IFAFY).  In the RW GPS, all IAF's would be listed, as well as the transitions and "vectors".

 

Scott

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Ok, thanks for the clarification guys - I´m not a pilot or similar else, this was my personal adoption - but I guess, this is a limitation of the new GPS.

 

Here the important part - you see the structure acording the technical documentation of the new GPS. The red-bold numbers define "special waypoints"

1 = IAF

2 = FAF

3 = MAP

0 = normal Waypoint

 

So, the waypoints are marked as IAF (IFAFY isn´t a IAF, thats wrong), but you can´t select it in the GPS. What I want to say is, that you see the IAFs in the data but it looks like, that the GPS doesn´t handle it ... It could be possible, that Philipp had forgotten this ... Sorry, but I don´t see any chance to fix it ...by the way, this isn´t a Navigraph issue - because the result is in the default Aerosoft database the same - but the Aerosoft data hasn´t the information about the special-waypoints in it as we have.

 

APPTR,R02,02,SANTY
IF,SANTY,36.979239,-122.073075, ,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
TF,LEPWU,36.807600,-122.056878,0, ,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,2,4000,0,1,210,0,1,0
TF,IFAFY,36.747581,-121.938372,0, ,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,2,3000,0,1,180,0,1,0

APPTR,R02,02,SNS
IF,SNS,36.663836,-121.603186, ,0.0,0.0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
TF,RISPE,36.687245,-121.820056,0, ,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,2,4000,0,1,210,0,1,0
TF,IFAFY,36.747581,-121.938372,0, ,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,2,3000,0,1,180,0,1,0

 

Cheers,

Richard
 

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And here we go again.... The never ending fun of "there's always one more way to do it":

You (navigraph) mark the IAFs in the transitions. But Aerosoft doesn't. In fact, there's not a single point marked as IAF in the whole database from Aerosoft.

So if I filter the IAFs out of the transitions, it still won't work with the Aerosoft data. As I said, the fun never ends...

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Sorry Philipp, but I see ONLY ONE correct way because this is a part of the official technical documentation which I had received - and we (Navigraph) had implemented it in the correct way - Aerosoft not. It´s simple ... sorry! I don´t see any fun here ...

 

TF_Record.PNG

 

special_waypoints.PNG

 

Cheers,

Richard

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Of course your way is the correct way to do it.

But we live in a world where there are two providers now, each with their own quirks... And the number of würgarounds seems to grow with O(n!)...

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Anyway - this discussion doesn't help Ryan and the other guys here! Fact is, that this IAF waypoints (defined or not) are not in the list and when I had understand the result correctly - this is a bug (or missing link) in the GPS and not a data issue!

 

I guess thats the conclusion now ...

Cheers

Richard

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Oh goodness I stirred up the hornets best lol!

 

Scott - about the IF - I may have done it wrong but pilots ask us all the time to go to IF's and we approve it (assuming their turn inbound is less than 90 degrees). Is that wrong?

 

The way I read our ATC docs is that we can clear you to the IAF or IF.

 

Also reference the navdata - it looks like I'm screwed unless I go with Aerosoft because the GPS isn't coded to read IAF's?

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Ryan, I'd be the last one to second guess your ATC knowledge.  But an IF wouldn't be listed as a transition by the Garmin 430.  You'd see vectors listed first, followed by the IAFs in alphabetical order, and then any transitions charted as part of the approach, also in alphabetical order.  So in the case of the approach you referenced, you'd get, in order, VECTORS LEPWU RISPE SANTY SNS.  The two IAFs would have IA next to them in red, indicating those were IAFs.

 

Scott

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I added the ability to extract the IAFs from the transitions for Beta3.

It will work only with Navigraph data, though. I've reported the missing IAF flags to Aerosoft a few months ago.

 

jj7Nnt6.png

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Awesome!!! That's service

 

Of course now you'll ###### off the Aerosoft subscribers lol!

Ryan, I'd be the last one to second guess your ATC knowledge. But an IF wouldn't be listed as a transition by the Garmin 430. You'd see vectors listed first, followed by the IAFs in alphabetical order, and then any transitions charted as part of the approach, also in alphabetical order. So in the case of the approach you referenced, you'd get, in order, VECTORS LEPWU RISPE SANTY SNS. The two IAFs would have IA next to them in red, indicating those were IAFs.

 

Scott

Ya but you fly more than I do. Check out KTWM RNAV Ry 6. A lot of pilots ask for TARUE.... If they're coming from the south they don't want the IAF.... So we approve. Would you only fly to the IAF then?

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Ya but you fly more than I do. Check out KTWM RNAV Ry 6. A lot of pilots ask for TARUE.... If they're coming from the south they don't want the IAF.... So we approve. Would you only fly to the IAF then?

 

Oh, I wish!  As I've noted on a number of occasions, I'm no longer actively flying and haven't been for a decade or so.  I still blue sky getting my medical again and doing a (probably lengthy) BFR, but for now the RW logbook is in mothballs.

 

Vectors and FOSUP are the only choices from the Garmin (I just double-checked and verified on the Garmin trainer).  I expect what these pilots are doing if they're coming from the south is loading the approach using FOSUP and then skipping over the first leg, jumping direct to TARUE.

 

And BTW, let me add my kudos to Philipp and Richard as well for the rapid response to Ryan's issue.  Well done guys.

 

Scott

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Thank you Philipp, I'm sure Aerosoft will fix this issue in his database latest for the final version because I'm sure that the information is in the Lido database too!

 

Thanks for fixing and thanks to Ryan and Scott for the explanation in this case! Had learned a lot again in this posting!

 

Cheers

Richard

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