Today I tried a more complex and testing landing into Sion LSGS. It didn't go too bad (I didn't crash!) apart from an issue between the frequencies that I had on the charts and what FS actually said (old frequencies). I'm after a bit more advice and help regarding the approach and programming it into the FMC.

 

This is the approach chart I used:

 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-885C611B7F10403C49017698144E9E96/Q5XSVMSJXVSRU/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/LS_AD_2_LSGS_24-10-1_en_2013-03-07.pdf

 

How would I go about programming this approach into the FMC? I did a lot of trial and error to make custom waypoints from GRANA and I did end up with an approach that looked pretty good compared to the plates but it took ages and didn't seem a very "professional" way to do it! 

 

There is one thing with Sion...

 

it has quite a strong set of IGS antennae. A bit too strong for FS... you cannot force the simulator to get the signal up where it should be IRL. It will only catch on somewhere like 2-3 miles past ALETO.

 

I have made this approach in PMDG navdata format a while back, I could try and send it to you when I get home.

 

Beware that GRANA is NOT a part of the inbound route IGS approach. It is ONLY a part of G/A procedure, that happens to be collocated with the IGS. 

 

 

How would I go about programming this approach into the FMC?

 

Can't you select it off of the DEP/ARR page?  If you don't know how to do that, then I'd suggest a run through the tutorials.

There is one thing with Sion...

 

it has quite a strong set of IGS antennae. A bit too strong for FS... you cannot force the simulator to get the signal up where it should be IRL. It will only catch on somewhere like 2-3 miles past ALETO.

 

I have made this approach in PMDG navdata format a while back, I could try and send it to you when I get home.

 

Beware that GRANA is NOT a part of the inbound route IGS approach. It is ONLY a part of G/A procedure, that happens to be collocated with the IGS. 

 

Thanks Fabo,

 

Yeah if you could send it to your procedure that would be fab, but I'd also like to learn how to program the FMC to do these more advanced procedures. If GRANA is not part of the IGS approach how would one perform it properly in the NGX?

 

Can't you select it off of the DEP/ARR page?  If you don't know how to do that, then I'd suggest a run through the tutorials.

 

Hi Kyle,

 

It doesn't have the approach programmed into the nav data...At least it didn't come up when I selected it. I am using the latest nav data

 

 

At least it didn't come up when I selected it.

 

You sure you hit EXEC after selecting it?  If it's in the nav database to be selected, then it something should show on the ND (even if you don't hit EXEC, it'll show up as a pending change).  Sometimes the approaches are named awkwardly, too.  As an example, I flew the VOR/DME 22L approach into JFK last night.  In the database, it's listed as VDM22L, instead of VOR22L as I was expecting.

 

 

Can't you select it off of the DEP/ARR page?  If you don't know how to do that, then I'd suggest a run through the tutorials.

 

Isn't there.

 

 

 

Yeah if you could send it to your procedure that would be fab, but I'd also like to learn how to program the FMC to do these more advanced procedures. If GRANA is not part of the IGS approach how would one perform it properly in the NGX?

 

 

Simple answer: You don't.

Less simple but still simple answer: If you don't have an approach in your database, you would fly it according to raw data IRL, by hand, or utilizing correct AP modes other than LNAV/VNAV (typically APP, often LOC and VS, sometimes HDG)

Not simple answer: You wouldn't put the fixes into FMC as a pilot, you don't have all the tools needed, at least not always. In this case it might just be possible... but still.

Proper data is coded in FMC database, IRL in ARINC 429 (IIRC) compatibile format, unfortunately textual format PMDG uses is not ARINC 429 compatibile, fortunately it is textual and as such easily editable.

You can learn about it and write your own procedures, or write in real procedures or their approximations.

 

 

Isn't there.

 

Gotcha.

 

I'll spare the RW diatribe about hand-entering approaches and how they need to be in the database.  This one's simple enough that one might as well just fly it in raw data...

Gotcha.

 

I'll spare the RW diatribe about hand-entering approaches and how they need to be in the database.  This one's simple enough that one might as well just fly it in raw data...

 

It may be simple to you but not to me. I'm just trying to learn as most approaches i've done so far have all been in the FMC database.

 

How would I hand fly it as there isn't a VOR or NDB for reference. I can get to GS601 no probs using the FIX page in the FMC at GRANA and then I can turn to 063 degs towards GS602 but then how do I workout how far i've travelled (in nm) from GS601 until I need to make the turn at GS602? Also do I assume the IGS extends as far out towards GS603 so I know when to turn onto the localiser?

 

Moving on from that Kyle, could you give me an example of a more complicated approach that would need to be hand entered and is there a good guide for writing my own procedures?

 

Thanks guys

 

Dan

This one's simple enough that one might as well just fly it in raw data...

 

 

Can't - not enough GS range in FS. Picks up ~1500ft under base.

 

Dan: It seems I can't attach a file here. PM me your mail and I'll send you the LSGS airport file.

 

 

It may be simple to you but not to me. I'm just trying to learn as most approaches i've done so far have all been in the FMC database.

 

This will probably come across as blunt, but it's not meant to be:

You're not going to learn anything about approaches if you stick to the FMC.

 

First, I'd recommend having a look at the basics, here:

 

 

 

How would I hand fly it as there isn't a VOR or NDB for reference. I can get to GS601 no probs using the FIX page in the FMC at GRANA and then I can turn to 063 degs towards GS602 but then how do I workout how far i've travelled (in nm) from GS601 until I need to make the turn at GS602? Also do I assume the IGS extends as far out towards GS603 so I know when to turn onto the localiser?

 

This approach is actually a hybrid of RNAV and ILS, which makes it difficult to explain if you don't really have the basics of approaches down yet.

 

The long and short of it is that you cannot hand-enter any RNAV approaches and legally fly them (real world, of course).  Since this has RNAV segments (for any point prior to MASAB), that portion is required to exist in the database.  If it doesn't, you have to select another approach.  Of course, with Sion, you really don't have another option.  That in mind, again, probably not a good approach to be flying until you have a better understanding of approaches in general.

 

Despite that, I'll explain a little further so you can come back to it later:

The STAR brings you to GRANA.  At GRANA, you fly outbound to GS601, then to GS602.  You then fly a 25 degree bank at less than 210 knots from GS602 until you intercept the LOC (which, by the way, the approach is called an "IGS" but the actual equipment is simply an ILS array with a steep glideslope).  After intercepting the LOC, maintain 17000 until you pass MASAB (which can be identified at 27.3 DME, or, though I can't tell for sure as the Swiss charting standard seems to be different, glideslope intercept).  Follow the LOC and GS just as you would any other ILS.

 

 

 

could you give me an example of a more complicated approach that would need to be hand entered and is there a good guide for writing my own procedures?

 

Approaches are never to be hand-entered into FMCs.  If you do, it can be used for cross reference only, while flying raw data.

 

If you're going to write your own procedures, the PMDG NAVDATA folder has a few read me files that explain, I think (if not, take a look at the existing data and use that as a format).  I don't recall it being too difficult, though I haven't looked at the data since about 2006.

I flew this approach more or less daily in the NGX and did for years...so the approach is engraved into my brain. I tryed to find the chart i have here (Dated NOV 06) on google but no luck.

 

the approach can be entered into the fmc by hand and then saved for future flight - meaning you dont have reprograme it.

 

The approach is as follows :

 

Fly to 'FRI' VOR (110.85)...then fly headin 175,

 

Tune MOT VOR (115.85) and intercept radial 086 (Left turn) to the VOR (17000ft at MOT VOR). Pass the VOR and follow the 086 radial for 25 DME. At 25 DME you need to be at 210 kts to make the LEFT turn to intercept radial 246 SIO VOR (112.15) around 30DME. Waypiont MASAB is at SIO246, 28DME, Then waypiont ALETO (26DME SIO), then pick-up the IGS 25, 108.35 and follow it down.

 

FMC :

 

FRI

SANET

MOT (17,000ft!)

MOT086/25 (speed : 210)

MASAB

ALETO (16,000ft!)

 

Then you could make waypionts from the sio VOR:

 

SIO066/26...will make a waypiont and you should intercept the LOC, and GS there.

 

I would like to add i have Swiss pro and sion X and pick the ILS/IGS up from 16000ft

This will probably come across as blunt, but it's not meant to be:

You're not going to learn anything about approaches if you stick to the FMC.

 

First, I'd recommend having a look at the basics, here:

 

 

 

 

This approach is actually a hybrid of RNAV and ILS, which makes it difficult to explain if you don't really have the basics of approaches down yet.

 

The long and short of it is that you cannot hand-enter any RNAV approaches and legally fly them (real world, of course).  Since this has RNAV segments (for any point prior to MASAB), that portion is required to exist in the database.  If it doesn't, you have to select another approach.  Of course, with Sion, you really don't have another option.  That in mind, again, probably not a good approach to be flying until you have a better understanding of approaches in general.

 

Despite that, I'll explain a little further so you can come back to it later:

The STAR brings you to GRANA.  At GRANA, you fly outbound to GS601, then to GS602.  You then fly a 25 degree bank at less than 210 knots from GS602 until you intercept the LOC (which, by the way, the approach is called an "IGS" but the actual equipment is simply an ILS array with a steep glideslope).  After intercepting the LOC, maintain 17000 until you pass MASAB (which can be identified at 27.3 DME, or, though I can't tell for sure as the Swiss charting standard seems to be different, glideslope intercept).  Follow the LOC and GS just as you would any other ILS.

 

 

 

 

Approaches are never to be hand-entered into FMCs.  If you do, it can be used for cross reference only, while flying raw data.

 

If you're going to write your own procedures, the PMDG NAVDATA folder has a few read me files that explain, I think (if not, take a look at the existing data and use that as a format).  I don't recall it being too difficult, though I haven't looked at the data since about 2006.

 

Thanks for the advice Kyle, very much appreciated. I'll watch that video for sure! One question I do have is how would you know when you are at GS602, as far as I can understand and see there is no way to measure or gauge when you're 7-8nm away from GS601... or does the 25 degree turn at 210 start at GS601?

I flew this approach more or less daily in the NGX and did for years...so the approach is engraved into my brain. I tryed to find the chart i have here (Dated NOV 06) on google but no luck.

 

the approach can be entered into the fmc by hand and then saved for future flight - meaning you dont have reprograme it.

 

The approach is as follows :

 

Fly to 'FRI' VOR (110.85)...then fly headin 175,

 

Tune MOT VOR (115.85) and intercept radial 086 (Left turn) to the VOR (17000ft at MOT VOR). Pass the VOR and follow the 086 radial for 25 DME. At 25 DME you need to be at 210 kts to make the LEFT turn to intercept radial 246 SIO VOR (112.15) around 30DME. Waypiont MASAB is at SIO246, 28DME, Then waypiont ALETO (26DME SIO), then pick-up the IGS 25, 108.35 and follow it down.

 

FMC :

 

FRI

SANET

MOT (17,000ft!)

MOT086/25 (speed : 210)

MASAB

ALETO (16,000ft!)

 

Then you could make waypionts from the sio VOR:

 

SIO066/26...will make a waypiont and you should intercept the LOC, and GS there.

 

I would like to add i have Swiss pro and sion X and pick the ILS/IGS up from 16000ft

 

Thanks Maddogz. I also have the Sion X scenery. I think I have found the approach you are talking about in the scenery folder.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/f96zly6ar4byubx/LSGS_RWY25_IGS.pdf

 

This makes it much easier to understand and fly the approach but raises further questions! Which approach is the right one (or more true to the RW)

 

I assume the one I posted in the OP is the latest (it also matches the one from vacc.ch) but makes things more difficult (also the ILS freq is different) whereas the old one from 06 is easier to understand...