The New Faster, Leaner Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium is Now Available for Your Input

[mgh 89]

 

 

If we as a community got behind Outerra, would you allow us to help move the Outerra Flight Simulation along? Yes I know there are many members of the Outerra fan base who are actively participating with the inclusion of flight models, buildings, etc. but would you allow us to work even closer to your development team to coordinate and perhaps even implement the feature sets that we as a community would like to see?

 

I'm just clarifying what you said. Obvious/y any member of the communitycan ask questions - as long as they don't claim to speak on behalf of the "community" - what ever that is?

 

I'm sure Outerra would welcome anyone who can make a contribution to its project - such a buildings?

[Luke 782]

Stephen, will you be contributing money, or tangible development work?

 

Luke

[srborick 0]

I'm just clarifying what you said. Obvious/y any member of the communitycan ask questions - as long as they don't claim to speak on behalf of the "community" - what ever that is?

 

I'm sure Outerra would welcome anyone who can make a contribution to its project - such a buildings?

 

So why make assumptions...

And why answer questions you're not qualified to answer... I'd prefer a direct answer from the Outerra representative.

 

Stephen B.

Stephen, will you be contributing money, or tangible development work?

 

Luke

 

Why do you ask?

 

I'll return the question....Will you be contributing money, or tangible development work?

 

Stephen Borick

[Luke 782]

 

 

I'll return the question....Will you be contributing money, or tangible development work?

 

I don't recall offering to take a formal role with Outerra in "driving" their sim.

 

Luke

[srborick 0]

I don't recall offering to take a formal role with Outerra in "driving" their sim.

 

Luke

My original question... Why do you ask?

 

Stephen B.

[mgh 89]

 

 

I'll return the question....Will you be contributing money, or tangible development work?

 

For the avoidance of doubt, i'm not contributing money, or tangible development work - will you?

[Luke 782]

 

 

My original question... Why do you ask?

 

Sigh.

 

The reason I ask is because in the real world, if you want to have influence and the ability to shape direction of an effort, you need to bring something to the table. Either you have expertise in a particular area and are willing to contribute your skills, talent and effort, or you have money you are willing to invest. The money part is easier, quicker and more fungible, but if you are an SME and willing to help out with good ideas you will gain credibility and influence.

 

So which is it?

 

Are you a 3D engine designer or integrator? Have you worked with incorporating GIS data from a variety of different sources? Can you write multi-threaded code? Have you worked with getting low-latency inputs from HIDs? Have you written third-party content for other simulators? Have you designed APIs for 3rd-party content? Or do you have $100,000 or more you're willing to invest?

 

If it's none of the above, what do you bring to the table besides a plethora of opinions and a forum (that you could not setup yourself) with a dozen users? If Outerra wants opinions, there's no shortage of those. Some even come from people with actual subject matter expertise.

 

Luke

[srborick 0]

 

 

For the avoidance of doubt, i'm not contributing money, or tangible development work - will you?

 

That truly depends upon how open the access would be to us as a flight simulator community and our ability to influence the outcome. If our opinions truly count and they are implemented on a truly demand basis (meaning the majority wants this feature or that and those features are actually implemented into the simulator) then I would seriously consider contributing money to the cause.

 

With that being said, I still don't understand why that particular question was presented to me and me alone.

 

Stephen B.

[Luke 782]

 

 

our ability to influence the outcome.

 

This is why people keep asking you, and you alone. I have no interest or expectations in the above. You do.

 

Luke

[srborick 0]

The reason I ask is because in the real world, if you want to have influence and the ability to shape direction of an effort, you need to bring something to the table.

 

Luke your comment is both ludicrous and rude...

Based upon your comment you have neither read or you have read and not understood the purpose of the NGFS SIM-Posium.  Besides... what makes you an expert in my ideas and reasoning for presenting those ideas. Heck... you don't even know me and yet you continually pretend that you have some insight to who I am and what my intentions are.

 

As I said... ludicrous and rude.

 

Stephen B.

This is why people keep asking you, and you alone. I have no interest or expectations in the above. You do.

 

Luke

 

So... why are you here... and why do you insist on attacking those who are here for the purpose of discussion regarding the future of flight simulation?

 

Stephen B.

Edited June 8, 2015 by n4gix
Removed excessive quote. Please stop doing this!

[cameni 9]

The community, over the years, have made numerous request for features that they feel would enhance the world of flight simulation, (some of those suggestions can be found in this thread)... can we as a community, have a more involved influence in the development of any flight simulator that may be considered by the Outerra developers and is there any thoughts to having qualified members join your team in order to take your engine in the direction of a bonafide flight simulator more quickly?

 

I can't really imagine how this would work, nor that it's a good idea for users to control the development process. First, how would a loosely defined community pick their representative/qualified members? And if they would join our team, will they become de facto employees subject to company control?

 

Do you mean some community formed governing body arising from the NGFS SIM-Posium project? Basically acting as a virtual developer licensing the engine for their project?

To be honest, I still cannot comprehend how's that supposed to work. Unclear structure, roles and responsibilities. If you launched your own crowd-funding project with the goal of gathering funds necessary for the development of a flight simulator, who would be managing and allocating the funds, controlling the development process?

 

If not... what would we need to do in order to have access to the engine on a code level, much the same way as TitanIM? I'm sure there are licenses, but is there an eval kit or anything that we could have access to in order to assess the engines potential?

 

I can't speak about our exact license terms with Titan and what access level they have got, but we are quite strict about what features go into the engine core and how they are implemented, because we have a clear vision of engine architecture and won't allow it to break into gazillion chaotic patches. Until the engine becomes stable and complete, the only way of any early licensing can work is with our direct cooperation on the project with a qualified developer. There's no engine eval kit at the moment.

 

At the moment the only way to assess the potential is via the tech demo, that is being continually extended and will eventually likely split into a sim platform and a game.

 

[mgh 89]

I think that's a definitive statement from Outerra.

[srborick 0]

"I think that's a definitive statement from Outerra."

 

I as well... exactly what I wanted to know.

 

And, quite frankly, what I expected.

 

 

 

Do you mean some community formed governing body arising from the NGFS SIM-Posium project? Basically acting as a virtual developer licensing the engine for their project?

 

Or any community group such as a thread established here on AVSIM... although I'm pretty much convinced that isn't going to happen... but what if it did?

 

Also, I wanted to know the amount of influence we as a flight simulator community would have in such a project. This is the jest of most project management, past and present: "Whether your idea is, big or small, we invite you to share them with us, however we cannot guarantee that anything discussed in this thread will make it into the final simulator." - DTG  underline added

 

 

As a flight simulator community, I still feel that we could, and ought to, come together and create something on our own terms... although I'm now very much aware that isn't necessarily the desire of the community as a whole. 

 

So, unfortunately we'll just have to be happy with what we have and satisfied with what we get.

 

Stephen B.

[HiFlyer 9,360]

I think that's a definitive statement from Outerra.

Which does not mean Cameni was saying there was no way to help. One of my ways was with money. Just as I purchased X-plane and then P3D primarily as a measure of support (and from curiosity) I purchased the full version of Outerra and would have paid quite a bit more if asked.

 

All the people who have done so are essentially long term beta testers, of an effort we hope might lead to something great.

 

Because of Outerras current use of open source libraries, and integrated import capability, those with the skills can import planes, build and test fdms, add buildings and airports, roads, vehicles.... (enough to spawn the birth of two independent websites)

 

The use of JSBSIM allows us as fans and enthusiasts direct access to much of the aviation side of Outerra, and to work at that (as well as on boats and other vehicles) while the developers perfect the core and add features, some of which directly support the needs of modders, which can illuminate areas that need work. (part of the work of any beta tester)

 

Many of the planes, vehicles, buildings and other things that have attracted interest in Outerra are the direct result of skilled, talented and enthusiastic people, some from this very community, stepping forwards and using those skills to promote something they believe in. This community can be of invaluable assistance in strengthening Outerras capabilities as a flight simulator by testing fdms for instance, while real pilots can provide guidance of the "feel" of aircraft. People familiar with Jsbsim (Like bomber, also known as Simon) can help with weather and other assistance.....

 

Outerra can be anything, but its been primarily the enthusiasm from people interested in Flight simulation that has provided much of the impetus on the forum. (I always wonder where all the boat and car guys are)

 

Keep that up! Join the forum! Add to the forums here! Say what you would like to see in Outerra! Those with the skills.... consider stepping forwards!

 

Isn't the goal to keep this hobby going, in whatever form?

 

Just recently, because of an enthusiast stepping forward, Outerra has expanded its capabilities much more firmly into orbit with Uriahs Aerokinetics mod. we can, indeed help. http://forum.outerra.com/index.php?topic=3062.0

 

[Luke 782]

 

 

Luke your comment is both ludicrous and rude...

 

You're right, others have put it more politely than I. Sorry.

 

But that doesn't change the equation one iota. I've been writing and shipping code for almost 30 years now. In my career, I've seen no shortage of people who have no idea how to do the work or what it entails, but who are never short of ideas or telling me what should be done.

 

In any form of business, there is no shortage of ideas, especially ideas that are as vague and unoriginal as most of what appears on your forums. There's a dramatic shortage of ability to get stuff done or to finance it. That's why sane individuals use the same filter that I, somewhat bluntly, applied to you. Can you do the work? Can you pay to get it done? If not, then you're just another back seat driver and there's NO shortage of those in the world.

 

While you may be offended that I didn't give your precious ideas the love and care that you feel the deserve, put yourself in my shoes. I actually do work, instead of sitting around and pontificating. I have a limited niche in the flight sim software world - I've written a flight data recorder, data analysis tool and multiplayer server. It's been used by several thousand people and logged around a half million flights in the last ten years

 

In that time, I've seen and heard from all sorts of "ideas folks" like yourself, who want to come in and tell me what to do with no ideas on how to do it or the compromises involved. I've tried to gently point out the drawbacks of this approach, and suggested you actually do some work instead of merely spouting generalities. You might actually get some experience and credibility by doing so.

 

You seem uninterested, and instead want to work with Outerra to "influence the outcome", which in my dictionary is "tell them what to do". They were again a lot more polite than me, but your reaction when I asked you directly whether you were capable of any meaningful contribution in terms of effort or money suggests you are capable of neither. That may be an incorrect assumption on my part but you've given no evidence to suggest otherwise. It's certainly the most reasonable and likely.

 

(That's also, by the way, why none of the existing software authors have gotten back to your forum invites. It's not because they're particularly "invested in the status quo", but because you don't have credibility and aren't perceived as adding value.)

 

So if you want to be offended, do so. However, from my perspective as someone who has delivered real tangible products and real tangible value, it's amusing to see someone waltz in, convinced that complete ignorance and wishful thinking is all that is necessary to succeed in solving a significant engineering challenge. You seem like a teenage intern who walks into a company and starts telling everyone what to do, then gets offended that people with actual knowledge and experience treat them like a blowhard.

 

Luke