The New Faster, Leaner Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium is Now Available for Your Input

[Luke 782]

 It isn't about me or what I can do... it's always been about what we can do as a community.

 

You keep using that word "do" - it does not mean what you think it means.

 

 

It's people like you who are killing the opportunities available to us who are members of the flight simulator community. Who in their right mind would ask us to help them create a next generation flight simulator even if they came with multiple degrees in business, developing, programming and a bank vault full of money. Why would they... just so you can stick their head on a pike and dance around a fire, screaming your heads off telling everyone else that you're right?

 

Let me get this straight. There's a whole bunch of different flight simulation efforts going on right now. There's Dovetail, there's Lockheed-Martin, there's Outerra, there's FlightGear. I don't recall criticizing or complaining about any of their efforts or the personalities behind them. If I have, please remind me. Now I may not agree with all of what they do or every design approach, but at the end of the day they're actually doing something and deal with a much larger audience than me. I even suggested that you go volunteer with FlightGear or some other group to gain some more context and build on what's already been created.

 

But no, none of those are good enough for you. When those were suggested, they were dismissed with a snooty "they aren't next-gen" and simply not worthy of consideration. You've been asked several times what your skill set was. It would be helpful in determining your qualifications to draw such a conclusion, and it is in your best interests to say so if you have some relevant expertise. You keep avoiding the subject.

 

So this hobby is apparently doomed not because inexperienced lay people like yourself can dismiss out of hand the hard work of experienced professionals. No, it's because those experienced professionals have the rudeness and temerity to criticize people who have no understanding or experience of how to do the work. Wow, I guess we are doomed. Along with every other branch of engineering and science, it seems.

 

Stephen, do you want to DO something? Like, really DO something?

 

Then re-read my earlier post. Go import a USGS terrain mesh into a sim. Build an aircraft model, or an airport scenery. It doesn't matter, but it will do two really good things for you. First, you'll learn a few things - a valuable skill in GIS or 3-D modeling or whatever is required, but you'll also learn what works and what doesn't for a particular task in a particular sim. You'll be able to make useful suggestions on what features to keep and what to change (and how!) and start going on your way to actually shaping the direction of future efforts.

 

Talk is cheap. Go DO something. I guarantee you and the hobby will be better off when you succeed.

 

Cheers!

 

Luke

[magicmike 10]

His intention is quite clear to me. His credential, maybe not so but that's not what i meant. Luke and some others made extremely good/excellent posts but some persons only criticized without adding something constructive to this topic 

[HiFlyer 9,360]

It could be that Outerra is the only viable way to approach the problem.

 

If somebody here was making a sim using Unigine, Unity, Terragen, or old cigarette butts, I would jump on that too, if there was actual working software showing some potential.

 

I've thought about this an awful long time, and this is a community of individuals only loosely tied together by our interest in flying. There are too many different agendas, personalities, egos and God knows what else the cat dragged in to think we would have a chance of pulling together without some truly charismatic individual at the helm.

 

Since that individual has never stepped forwards (and God help them if they do) the other alternative was some person, group or organization that was already working on something. Aerosoft's project is listed inactive, DTG is an unknown, X-plane is coasting along at the same stately pace as always, and P3D is the last best hope..... for pretty much more of the same, from my perspective.

 

Until something else climbs up from the swamp, Outerra seemed to be "It"

[dtmicro 1]

If somebody here was making a sim using Unigine, Unity, Terragen, or old cigarette butts, I would jump on that too, if there was actual working software showing some potential.

 

I've thought about this an awful long time, and this is a community of individuals only loosely tied together by our interest in flying. There are too many different agendas, personalities, egos and God knows what else the cat dragged in to think we would have a chance of pulling together without some truly charismatic individual at the helm.

 

Since that individual has never stepped forwards (and God help them if they do) the other alternative was some person, group or organization that was already working on something. Aerosoft's project is listed inactive, DTG is an unknown, X-plane is coasting along at the same stately pace as always, and P3D is the last best hope..... for pretty much more of the same, from my perspective.

 

Until something else climbs up from the swamp, Outerra seemed to be "It"

 

Good Post, well I suppose I could try to just build a very small prototype myself from my own vision. It would be pretty simple though. My main concern with Outerra is really only the fact that we would be basically at their mercy when it came to how things were done. Hence, if it never got completed to the point of useable, it might be difficult to overlay stuff on top of their world using out-of-process (hence out of engine) coding. So if something wasn't ready from Outerra, and we were just waiting for them to complete something, and they've admitted they have a small team, you'd be stuck. You'd have invested all that time and energy and be at the mercy of someone else.

 

I once lost a business (and tons of money) because I did exactly that, I bet everything on this one product (nothing to do with gaming, it was a business product), I was writing add-ons for it. The product was bought out by a much larger company, and the "engine" immediately discontinued. My add-ons became worthless over-night almost. It had nothing to do with the product making money, the product was still making money when it was shut-down, the reason it was shut-down is because the company also bought out 8 other similar products to take over the market, and they shut down 7 of them. I now had a business that I had invested in that was worthless because it was tied into that one "engine" (so to speak). Don't ever think that just because a company has some history, or because they are going strong, that it will always be that way you just never know.

 

I always wanted to be involved in building a sim from the ground up (literally), but I'm afraid there is no money in it and I would go broke

[HiFlyer 9,360]

It would be pretty simple though. My main concern with Outerra is really only the fact that we would be basically at their mercy when it came to how things were done.

 

While we waited for FLIGHT, we were at Microsoft's mercy. Right now we are pretty much at a lot of people's mercy, from P3D to DTG, as to where an available or future program might go. We should be used to it. We can list our desires, but whether they are listened to, and how, has always been up for grabs.

[dtmicro 1]

Yah, but if I were to invest time and money into something, my point is I'd be more comfortable doing it for an engine that had a large group of developers involved, a big revenue stream, and had been around 3+ years at a very commercial level, and therefore it were already complete and had produced games already. Even if the engine were discontinued, you could still finish the game. When something is not "finished" and they discontinue it, you cannot finish your game.

 

That simple, it's a big problem, it not only happened to me, but I had a friend (a very well off friend) that lost even more money than I did in a similar business to what I was doing for almost the same reason. It happens all the time in software when dealing with small business products. It's a big danger that I'd rather avoid.

[HiFlyer 9,360]

Understood.

 

Kickstarters and group efforts like Stephen B, was talking about, are almost by definition about reducing the risk to any one particular individual. You are on the other hand, speaking of a large personal risk.

 

Or even a corporate risk, which is why I always had no problem when Aerosoft backed away. I could see why somebody could decide such a venture was too perilous.

[dtmicro 1]

Understood.

 

Kickstarters and group efforts like Stephen B, was talking about, are almost by definition about reducing the risk to any one particular individual. You are on the other hand, speaking of a large personal risk.

 

Or even a corporate risk, which is why I always had no problem when Aerosoft backed away. I could see why somebody could decide such a venture was too perilous.

 

Would much rather use kickstarter, but I think you need a good prototype first. So still some risk at first.

[HiFlyer 9,360]

Would much rather use kickstarter, but I think you need a good prototype first. So still some risk at first.

 

And round it goes. Until that happens, and has something to show for it, we can only look at things that are already on their way, are not waiting around for us, and already have working software on the ground.  :unsure:

 

Believe me, I went round and round the mental circles, parsing the variables, before deciding who to personally support, at least until something changes.

[srborick 0]

You know something LUKE... until you actually take the time to read through these threads... and the articles that I posted on the SIM-Posium... instead of around them... you simply do not know what you're talking about.

 

READ THIS CAREFULLY.... 

 

I am not a programmer... never said I was and have stated many times that I'm not. I'm just a person who made a suggestion that we as a community work together to bring about something constructive and then built a place for us to do that. No it wasn't an ego thing... it was about organizing and keeping track of ideas, information. 

 

I did DO something... something that was within my abilities and my means, hoping that others would bring their talents, their abilities and DO likewise.

 

For you to so rudely and crudely dismiss my efforts and to attempt to defame me is above reproach and is morally wrong.

 

I hope you're proud of yourself

 

Stephen B. 

 

 

 

 

 

[cmpbellsjc 2,963]

And round it goes.

And where it stops nobody knows. We'll see something in the next few years most likely from an established developer.

 

 

You know something LUKE...

Luke may come across as harsh, but he makes a lot of valid points.

[CYXR 257]

If the future of this hobby is not about you Stephen then you shouldn't fault others for not wanting to make it about themselves.

I'm as out of this now as you were from the get-go.

 

bc

[srborick 0]

Luke may come across as harsh, but he makes a lot of valid points.

 

Luke does not make a lot of valid points when it comes to who I am as a person... what he wrote was defaming, slanderous, and an outright attempt to discredit me as an individual.

 

 

If the future of this hobby is not about you Stephen then you shouldn't fault others for not wanting to make it about themselves.

I'm as out of this now as you were from the get-go.

 

bc

 

I think you may have misrepresented what I said as well... the attempt to create a website for the gathering of people to discuss the future of flight simulation wasn't about me as some people have tried to imply that it was all for my benefit.... it was about all of us working together. And... as I stated many times, some people would agree and some wouldn't. I never faulted anyone for not wanting to be a part of the discussion. 

 

CYXR, have you taken the time to read through this thread... even the very first post? Have you taken the time to read the Articles on the SIM-Posium? If not... please do before you make a statement as the one you did. Again... making such comments without the correct information boils down to just someone who is shooting from the hip. In this case a bit of the Pied Piper syndrom.

 

Stephen B.

[HiFlyer 9,360]

 

 

And where it stops nobody knows. We'll see something in the next few years most likely from an established developer.

 

 

It's always a possibility. But it's also true that many have been waiting for a white knight to hitch their horse to for a very long time, and it seems the established developers have been waiting as well. Waiting on X-plane 10, P3D, and now, maybe DTG.

 

Maybe we will wait eagerly for X-plane 11 as well, some day.  :unsure:

 

But all of those products have firm connections to the past, and the thing about the past, is that we've all been there before, also known as, "Been there, done that"

 

And of course this whole thread (personalities aside) was about doing something entirely new. Your own pictures and discussions of what is possible, show a yearning towards that which we know is attainable with the new capabilities, from a world that is increasingly leaving us behind, technologically.

[dtmicro 1]

Their comments didn't really add anything to the discussion, just more bickering. People will always try to put you in your place in a forum. It doesn't matter if people agree with the bickering or don't agree, it's still bickering.

 

I do not agree with a lot of the things said in here, and some of it I know to be wrong from my own experience. Like for instance, the claim that Terragen in flight cannot look nearly as good as a video (at the sweet spot in elevation, yah it can).

I've seen how even remastered 30CM aerial images can look exactly like looking out a real plane window even in FSX which is 12 year old technology even from as low as probably 1,000 feet high, so of course Terragen can if you are willing to use ridiculous amounts of HD space and convert it to 30cm Raster. I do not know what the capabilities are for using Terragen in other formats however.

 

Also the claim that the FSX engine is highly optimized for streaming, yet it cannot even access enough RAM and it doesn't blur, and all the objects that have no MIP MAPs waste all the VAS. It cannot even unload objects from memory properly, and it leaks memory sometimes. It's funny how something is said to be optimized while it's still leaking memory

 

That blurring technique implemented by GTA V, JC 2 and 3 ---- has been being used for 20+ years all the way back to the NEO-GEO and 3DO (and even some in Nintendo 64), yet FSX doesn't have a way to properly employ the technique to remove a lot the texture memory issues. I don't think it's a matter of just the MIP MAPs, it's a type of blur mask on the textures to reduce texture memory.