The New Faster, Leaner Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium is Now Available for Your Input

[JonRD463 146]

The attitudes in this thread are indicative of why I've pretty much given up on simming. Simming, for me, had always been about the community. Back in ye olden times, when addons were basically creations made with Aircraft & Scenery Designer or Aircraft & Adventure Factory for FS4, I have fond memories of dialing into my local flight sim themed BBS, checking the freeware, and patching into Usenet to read and participate in the wider (albeit smaller by today's standards) flight sim community from around the world. It was more of a brotherhood, and fairly free of constant bickering.

 

But now? I don't know what to make of it. Whether literally or figuratively, I see the flight sim community as a bunch of bitter old men arguing for the sake of arguing. Further, it seems that whenever someone comes up with a new idea, the collective descends upon them waving their canes and essentially yelling for them to get off their damn lawn.

 

Yeah, I'd say I'm done. Tired of the FSX-based engine, too impatient with X-Plane's glacial development pace, and watching this sideshow against Stephen B. for having the audacity to do SOMEthing to help progress the hobby. Makes me sick.

[mgh 89]

 

 

something that was within my abilities and my means...

 

And your abilities and means are?

[TooWings 17]

... I see the flight sim community as a bunch of bitter old men arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

We all see the world differently I guess. But there's no need to be rude and ageist.  Lighten up!  The flightsim community is, in reality composed of many different age groups, and in my opinion no simmer ever grows old as they are young at heart with the spirit of flight in their veins.

 

...tired of..watching this sideshow against Stephen B. for having the audacity to do SOMEthing to help progress the hobby. Makes me sick.

 

 Stephen has simply set up a website and has been sharing comments with us as to the possibility of a next=gen flightsim.  This thread is actually a good discussion with inputs from many seasoned devs and simmers ..but its nothing new, such discussions and polls happen every year or so. 

 

...It just so happens that this thread has a massive number of hits as people are keen to follow the drama (since Stephen has stuck his neck out).   Naturally there will appear to be many 'negative' comments to Stephen's way of thinking and proposals but thats to be expected in any debate

 

My personal view of all this is that Stephen, well intentioned though he is, is out of his depth.  He's a well meaning amateur on many levels who often disagrees with highly experienced devs and members..and it's got to the stage now where Stephen's frustration at getting nowhere is turning into bitterness which is expressing itself in shouting, blame and anger in many of his posts.

 

..I therefore don't think Stephen's nex-gen-flightsim idea or website will get anywhere but its been a fun discussion and kudos to Stephen for trying (but trying too hard leads to strain, so perhaps its time to call it quits)..All the negative feedback Stephen is attracting is simply that, a reality check - feedback from the community that he is getting nowhere fast. Meanwhile Dovetail, Lockheed-Martin and Outerra etc have already achieved something concrete on which they are building.

[flyforever 267]

This is my last post on this thread.  My take is that flight simming is here to stay, because it's already here. If nothing else happens, I am happy for what my money has gotten me with FSX. If something happens, I'll be even happier.

I've got more planes than I can actually fly, so for the 30 or so minutes a day that I spend on it, I have no complaints.

When I was young, there were no pc or sims. The first Apple flight sim cartoon became an instant best seller.

Now, as with all things, people expect a lot for nothing.

So a one person developer ( like flysimware for example) spends a couple of years to put out a pretty good high fidelity plane, and then gets shouted down at the least bug that does not get resolved immediately.

 

With that kind of unrealistic feedback, it's no wonder that  fewer and fewer folks would be crazy enough to embark on a brand new sim. When I was a corporate manager, I understood that the concept of nurturing the workforce was far more important than constantly knocking them down, demanding more and more for fewer dollars.  People believed in my efforts and gave me their honest input and sweat. New young mbas arrived and for them it was similar to drone strikes: targets and nothing else. Can anyone guess where the business went?

 

tony

[dtmicro 1]

I do not have much hope in P3D, DG, or Flight Gear.

The reason for these arguments have nothing to do with sim'n, and everything to do with the way all forum threads turn out. 

My personal view of all this is that Stephen, well intentioned though he is, is out of his depth.  

It's useless to try to sum someone up in a forum. I have no idea, as I do not know him. His mistake was that when you come into a forum to do anything, you have to prepare yourself for the mud slinging that is going to follow. Why do you think so few corporate reps of any product in any forum will respond to posts about their own product, unless they have a vested interest to do so. No-one likes getting flamed, except me, I kind of enjoy it a little...

 

I see nothing wrong with what he did, even if I do not agree with his approach completely or the fact that I may disagree with his experience, or credentials. I still see nothing wrong with trying, you have to start somewhere. Just because there have been threads like this in the past, well that may be true but technology keeps increasing while sim'n is mostly standing still.

 

I still do not understand the purpose of Flight Gear, it looks like a lesser version of FSX, I guess to the people involved its an educational experience or something, but IMHO they should have taken a different approach because few want another SIM like that. I don't mean their approach was wrong, I just mean at least make the graphics look different, even the graphics look like FSX.

[HiFlyer 9,361]

Yeah, I'd say I'm done. Tired of the FSX-based engine, too impatient with X-Plane's glacial development pace, and watching this sideshow against Stephen B. for having the audacity to do SOMEthing to help progress the hobby. Makes me sick.

 

This all could have worked. With Stephen (or somebody) as a rallying point of a call to action (as a simple community manager) he need not necessarily to have also been a technician. More of a politician. 

 

It's been done before, and there are successful working open source projects out there that started in similar ways.

 

Its a possibility this community may simply be too large and deeply entrenched. Instead of getting the ball rolling, Stephen found he was attempting to get the Chrysler building rolling, filled with tenants wondering what the gent with the spoon was doing digging at the foundation.

 

I don't mean their approach was wrong, I just mean ******* at least make the graphics look different, even the graphics look like FSX.

At least they got something done. But to me it really does seem sometimes that we are in a type of deep, deep rut; repeatedly trying to recreate FSX all over again, even if the name of the program is different.

 

When asked what we want, we reel off a list of basic "must have" demands, that when assembled...... equals FSX.

 

Even DTG's new effort will likely be judged here at least, by how close they got to recreating....... FSX. (even if it has a nicer chrome finish)

 

When you mention driving cars and boats and all sorts of new experiences, the reaction, reduced to its simplest basics is often in the end something like, "Well, we never needed that stuff in" *Drumroll* "FSX, and besides it's not really possible without spending a zillion bucks"

 

Hey! *points* Outerra/Unity/Unigine etc is doing it right now!

 

"Yeah, well its ok I guess, but it's definitely not....." *drum roll cymbal crash* "FSX......."

 

Its actually kind of funny, providing you are not taking all of this to heart.

[dtmicro 1]

In my spare time, I am going to render some Terragen textures and throw them into FSX to see how it looks, I'll render them right over the FSX mesh and place them using PR techniques. I was investigating other outerra like apps out there, didn't get very far yet. Saw a weird DEM plugin for Cinema 4D that looked interesting, but didn't try it and it was expensive. I was looking at a bunch of different world generators.

 

I looked at the flight sim plug-in for Unity, but I still think Unity is probably not the right choice.

[HiFlyer 9,361]

I looked at the flight sim plug-in for Unity, but I still think Unity is probably not the right choice.

I looked at Unity a lot too..... and it always felt..... off, for a flight simulator... (can't actually describe what I mean, just a gut feeling after looking at a lot of products made with it)

[mgh 89]

I still do not understand the purpose of Flight Gear, it looks like a lesser version of FSX, I guess to the people involved its an educational experience or something, but IMHO they should have taken a different approach because few want another SIM like that. I don't mean their approach was wrong, I just mean at least make the graphics look different, even the graphics look like FSX.

 

FlightGear started as an idea  by David Murr in 1996 and some other volunteers.  They slowly developed it through various beta-stages until achieved version 1.0 in 2007. It has now reached Version 3.4 earlier this year.  Despite that, I  don't believe it's up to the standards of other commercial simulators,  I've alwaysit's for the small number enthusiasts who want to develop fligh simulator. - nothing wronf with that.

 

Having said that, FlightGear is open-source could would a sound basis for anyone who has the enthusiasm, ability, and resources to expand it into a next generation simulator - why should anyone want to start-from-scatch again with a totally new simulator?. 

 

[HiFlyer 9,361]

why should anyone want to start-from-scatch again with a totally new simulator?.

Its not an answerable question. Why write a new book in an established genre when there are a zillion books with similar themes? Why make a new movie about relationships, when it's been done so many times before? Why make a new racing game, aren't there enough of those?

 

For that matter, why didn't flightgear confine its efforts to sprucing up Microsoft's contributions?

 

In the end, its up to the creators innate belief that they can bring some unique viewpoint to the table.

 

And sometimes, its solely the clean, powerful urge to simply create; like when you make a meal your way, when you could easily slavishly follow somebody else's recipe.

 

I was investigating other outerra like apps out there, didn't get very far yet. Saw a weird DEM plugin for Cinema 4D that looked interesting, but didn't try it and it was expensive. I was looking at a bunch of different world generators.

 

Believe me, I empathize with that journey. While I was on my version of it, it seemed scarier and scarier to me that our hobby was in desperate enough straits that we rejoiced shoring up with timbers sims that could be nearly matched (graphically) by something on an ipad, an indication to me, if there ever was one, of how far we had come from the days when flight sims were nearly the definition of cutting edge.

 

Come to think of it, some of these sims, like X-plane and Aerofly, actually are on Ipads!

[mgh 89]

 

 

In the end, its up to the creators innate belief that they can bring some unique viewpoint to the table.

 

I wonder why Lockheed Martin and DTG both used Microsoft technology rather than bringing their unique viewpoint?

 

Perhaps Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium will bring its  unique viewpoint - i'd love to read what that will be?
 

[HiFlyer 9,361]

I wonder why Lockheed Martin and DTG both used Microsoft technology rather than bringing their unique viewpoint?

 

I would guess because it was easier than starting from scratch. Note that neither company was satisfied with the product as is, and started extensive renovation. The problem is, that a renovated antique Chevy...... Is still an antique Chevy; unless you completely gut it, in which case it's really not a Chevy anymore, is it? Just a familiar shell.........

 

In the case of P3D much too familiar, but that's just me.

 

One size does not fit all. Following the tried and true is easier, but it's the innovators that dare to try something different that shape the course of history.

[mgh 89]

 

 

I would guess because it was easier than starting from scratch.

 

Which i what is said a few posts ago!

[HiFlyer 9,361]

What you said was:

 

Having said that, FlightGear is open-source could would a sound basis for anyone who has the enthusiasm, ability, and resources to expand it into a next generation simulator - why should anyone want to start-from-scatch again with a totally new simulator?. 

 

I then simply gave you some reasons why people start from scratch. Easier is a reason why some people do not start from scratch. True innovation is rarely easy.

[srborick 0]

 

 

And your abilities and means are?

 

Are you really that thick... and that willing to continue this bickering back and forth?

 

Here, let me spell it out for you...

 

My abilities was the capability of funding the creation and funding a website for the means of a community discussion regarding the future of flight simulation and the possibilities of creating a community driven flight simulator. 

 

Clear enough for you?

 

For gawd sake read below if you really do (ooops there's that word "Do" again, hope I'm using it correctly) want to understand the reason behind the SIM-Posium, why I built it, and why I'm funding it... or... you can remain secure and happy in your self inflicted bliss.

 

 

 

The Next Generation Flight Simulator SIM-Posium’s move is completed and you are all invited to become a part of the discussion geared towards the planning and development of a community driven flight simulator. You can find it by going to nexgenflightsim (you know the rest).

 

The NGFS SIM-Posium Home Page provides you with access to Articles regarding why a next generation flight simulator is needed, Old technologies vs New, How we, as a community can work together to make a next generation flight simulator a possibility, as well as information regarding CrowdSourcing and how CrowdFunding can provide the means to accomplish the communities goals. There is no need to register to gain access to this information.

 

The new NGFS Forum is where you can add your ideas, your opinions, your moans and your groans, your enthusiasm, and much more. You're invited to participate in the forums through registration. To access the forum, click on the Forum Menu on the Main menu bar... bookmark the forum to bypass the front portal... if you wish... and go directly to the NGFS Forum for frequent visits.

 

New "Articles" announcements will be made in the forum, which you can read at your leisure. 

 

If you are at all interested in the future of consumer oriented flight simulation, you owe it to yourself to become a part of the NGFS SIM-Posium and part of the conversation. Your participation can lend to the overall consensus of what a next generation flight simulator should consist of, how it should be created, by whom, how and when.

 

At the very least… hop on the site, read the 4 must reads and learn what the NGFS SIM-Posium is all about.

 

It's important to know that the NGFS SIM-Posium is time sensitive. A minimum of six months has been allocated in order to gauge the "Will" of the flight simulation community and their willingness to start a movement that can grow towards the successful completion of a next generation flight simulator.

 

The future of flight simulators can literally be in your hands.